Towing 2018 33' Classic

[Plan-B]

Originally Posted by MAJORJDB

Gee, Plan-B, not sure what you are towing, but I think your super-diesel versus humble-gas assessment is a bit extreme. I don't deny your claims insofar as performance (maybe fuel economy, which is affected by driving habits as well). You are definitely spot on with weight/towing specs, but most of us are not OTR truckers and my TV (w/factory towing pkg) has performed flawlessly towing cross-country quite a few times. I have seen the results of a few TT RV'rs who pull like they are driving a corvette and RVs do break up on impact!! Going down steep grades, my tow/haul transmission controls my speed while towing very well, but "jake brakes" do sound cool and work well. I did love the air horn on my MoHo much more than on the F-
250, have to upgrade that, lol. If a diesel satisfies your needs then drive one, but gas
has advantages as well, no TV is perfect, it
just depends on what you are willing to live
with/without... Travel safe

I can't disagree with what you are saying. I think my point got lost on tow ratings 1/2 vs 3/4 ton, my fault. They are not apples to apples with regards to specifications. I did not want this to be taken as I was trying to sell diesel over gas. I will add to this point on the next thread and do my best to keep this to 1/2 ton vs 3/4 towing less the comparison of gas vs diesel. I mentioned but did not elaborate enough, that there is 'not a 3/4 gasser that can't meet your needs pulling ASs'. And that the capability of a gasser in a 3/4, as regards to towing, has different specifications then the same motor in a 1/2 ton. I also emphasized if you are not pulling a 'lot' do NOT buy a modern diesel and I can not over emphasize this. But my comparison on diesel vs gas when the tough gets going, there is no comparison in performance, longevity and comfort..but not needed by most pullers needs.

And my last observation concerning towing, its not always what you are pulling it is where you are pulling. I pull mainly out west where it is boiling hot, extreme grades up and down and following mostly, as I can, two lane curvy roads through the mountains requiring significant braking. Much different than the interstate puller and relative flat landers.

[NWRVR]

As Rgentum stated, do consider the F350 or 3500. Take a look at the payload on the door jam of any 250 or 2500 which may not be enough for your needs depending on the trim of the TV you would buy. I can't speak for any but the F350 and the only difference is the extra rear leaf spring that does not come into play until needed by the load and 4" spring blocks instead of 2" so it rides the same as the 3/4 ton. I went with diesel primarily for the exhaust brake and it is worth it. Good luck and congratulations!

[Plan-B]

Originally Posted by gr.austin

Be careful, don't do what I did. I am towing a 27FB classic (9000#) with an F150 and 1850 max load rating. It worked fine except for big hills and narrow roads. I decided i needed a 3/4 ton truck (F250) to max me feel more comfortable (wrong). I spent $55K for a diesel F250 and never gave it a thought that the max load capacity would be less that the F150. After I got it home and $55K lighter I looked at the max load rating: it was 1850 #'s. I didn't get what I was expecting. I put it on the CAT scales fully loaded with the trailer and found that I was still overloaded. The front axle was at 95% rating and the rear axle was at 100%. The CAT scale said I was 11050 # with the trailer. 1050 overload. IMO the entire extra strength of the truck was sucked up by the diesel engine. If I had purchase the 5.0L gas I would have been better off. I would have unloaded both axles and given me that extra 500# I was expecting to get with the F250.
A friend of mine has an F150 and his max load rating is 2200 # 300# MORE than the F250. Here is the problem: every truck has a different max load rating based on the options and features of the truck. You have to look on the door column of every truck to see what you are getting. Don't assume that all F250's have the same max load rating they don't.
The diesel is fun but I don't need it. The 5.0L is now being rated as a better engine with better fuel economy than the diesel. My diesel with 8,000 miles is only getting 11-12 towing the trailer and 13-14 not. I sure the 5.0L gas will do better than that I know empty my 5.4L F150 was getting 14-15mpg.

By the way don't forget to include that weight of the cap you put on the TV as well as the hitch. My Henley Arrow (a must to have) adds about 150# to the tongue a small price to pay for the way extra benefits.

Happy Streaming

This is my last post on this series of threads. As mentioned earlier, and someone else mentioned too, it just opens up a can of worms and lots of emotions. I hope the owner of the new 33' gets something out of all of this but I will leave one more item and it is fact based: Tow rating on capacity on 1/2 tons are pretty much a marketing game. Who can post the biggest numbers wins. Fact: in 1/2 ton pickups the 'EPA' allows manufacturers to list a maximum tow rating based on only a few simple criteria such as engine size, cab configuration and presumed weight. And since there is no standard or specific EPA guidelines, its every manufacture to the marketing department for the numbers, a l little exaggeration. Fact: 1/2 ton pickups are not required to follow the SAE J2807 criteria for determining tow safe capabilities. 1/2 ton are considered a light truck, just like your Suburban.

Case in point: your numbers, and I am not questioning your numbers...they are what they are, but how in the heck can a 1/2 ton have a higher tow capacity than a 3/4 ton pickup? Simple, the 3/4 ton numbers are correct, the numbers on the 1/2 are not, they are pull numbers out of a squishy EPA sort of guideline. The 3/4 ton follows 'strict' SAE J2807 guidelines to determine tow capabilities. Note: this has nothing to do about whats best gas vs diesel. Its about strict testing. Case in point: do people really think a new F-150 has almost 30-40% more towing capacity than Chevy or Ram 1/2 tons? No, they don't. They are all about equal, give or take if equipped the same. And there is no law against the exaggerations and disparities.

What is this SAE J2807 towing specifications that 3/4 ton and above have to follow? Its no less than 15 test criteria all the vehicles have to go through before listing there tow specs. They are extensive extreme tests, specific, measurable and the test are identical between all the manufactures. Tests designed to give data and fact of a tow platform that will operate at these standards as a norm.

Here is a link that does a simple and good list of what is tested and how. One does not need to memorize these things but the big take away is; when a 3/4 ton lists its maximums they are fact and tested. The vehicle is also designed to operate at these limits as well. They are commercial vehicles. Not everyone needs one.

http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/tow...-the-standard/

In conclusion: there is no way scientifically or by SAE standards, other than following your instinct, experience and comparing for yourself the differences and capabilities, specifications, of a 3/4 ton and above versus a 1/2 ton and below. the numbers on a 1/2 ton loosely defined by the manufactures are based on an EPA guideline that the manufactures do not apply equally. But Chevy and RAM are more closely aligned than Ford for 1/2 tons. The same EPA guideline that says my Subaru Impreza can almost pull my AS:-)

As a side note: Before 2017 3/4 & 1 ton models RAM was blowing FORD and Chevy out of the towing market. With less horsepower and torque than FORD. Both Chevy and FORD had significant upgrades in 2017, FORD mainly the frame which was their limiting factor. So how is it that FORD with 450hp and almost 900 pounds of torque be so far behind a 6 cylinder only putting out 365hp and 800 pounds of torque (before 2017)? It was because the new SAE standards were put into effect and the whole truck's capabilities had to be taken into consideration, all 15 of them. The standards forced the manufactures to build a deliver better trucks designed for their purpose and specifications that permit more realistic apples to apples real world comparison to the consumer.

Now we only wish the standards would be applied to 1/2 trucks. Unfortunately that will probably never happen in the light duty classification.

[slowmover]

J2807 has holes in it big enough to drive a truck thru. It's not honest in terms of being aboveboard in all ways. And, it is not accurate. We hashed this over six or seven years ago. Have a look.

"Where" one tows -- West or East -- is also not valid as criterion. It is, however, illuminating: the steeper the descent, the more handicapped a rig by an overly heavy TV. Braking, handling, and steering. The higher COG only intensifies the effect.

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by EarlM

I have a GMC Denali 3500 diesel to tow my 2015 classic 30 and I am picking up a new 2018 33 soon.

I have heard a lot of nonsense on this site about towing big trailers with toy vehicles, weigh each wheel, don't load too much in the trailer, don't load to much in the tow vehicle. I feel if I couldn't afford a proper tow vehicle I wouldn't buy a big airstream.

Go big or stay on the porch

Earl

Vehicle cost isn't the determinant.

As you lack experience (or passing acquaintance with high school physics), be careful with what you "think" is nonsense. You're an accident waiting to happen.

Rest assured you can blame it on circumstances. No one will say otherwise.

Others believe that there is no such thing as an accident.
(It's a prudent approach).

.

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by gbstats

I have a question for you all. We are picking our new 2018 33' Classic in two weeks and would like some help on tow vehicle. We currently have a 2013 Ford F150 with a V8 and have been towing a 27' international signature FB. I am sure we need to upgrade but would like some input on gas vs diesel and do we need to upgrade to a 1 ton or just a 3?4 ton?

Thank you all for your help in this matter
Gary & Tina :-)

First work with what you have. See the old (and illuminating) thread 2Airishuman
started some years ago, "Cat Scale . . . ."

Read through it and similar threads.

All posts and published articles by Andrew Thomson of Can Am RV. Has codified what the rest of us were learning by trial and error forty and more years ago. He has set 10,000-plus tow rigs down the road. Understand the "why".

If for some odd reason you just have to carry 1500-lbs in the bed of a truck, then upsize.

I'd recommend a Hensley or Propride hitch. And trailer disc brakes also.

Vehicle lash up is both basic and critical

[KCCO]

Some of these threads just make me laugh.....people recommending expeditions and smaller SUV type vehicles because they have low center of gravity, etc. then talk about how they tow with a half ton. Then other people who spend significant amounts of time destroying 3/4 and 1 ton pickups as tow vehicles listing that very thing as their tow vehicle in their profile.

When we camp we haul bikes, firewood, grill, etc. none of which I want inside a really nice Expedition, Porsche, etc. other folks have generators, gas cans, and on and on. Some of us use trucks because that's what fits our camping style. If you don't camp that way I get it but some of us do.

Sometimes it seems like people on here need to chill out just a little and just go camping in these awesome trailers we own instead of telling people how wrong they are about how they camp, tow, etc.

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by KCCO

Some of these threads just make me laugh.....people recommending expeditions and smaller SUV type vehicles because they have low center of gravity, etc. then talk about how they tow with a half ton. Then other people who spend significant amounts of time destroying 3/4 and 1 ton pickups as tow vehicles listing that very thing as their tow vehicle in their profile.

When we camp we haul bikes, firewood, grill, etc. none of which I want inside a really nice Expedition, Porsche, etc. other folks have generators, gas cans, and on and on. Some of us use trucks because that's what fits our camping style. If you don't camp that way I get it but some of us do.

Sometimes it seems like people on here need to chill out just a little and just go camping in these awesome trailers we own instead of telling people how wrong they are about how they camp, tow, etc.

Did you not notice that this and many other threads are often open-ended questions? Mistaking particulars for generalities (and the reverse) is common, so feel welcome.

But "what is best?" hasn't anything to do with the amount of junk one carries.

That's a separate question.

And, "Lifestyle" is a meaningless word.

Clearing wrong assumptions is about basics. Necessary, versus "what we think we want".

Firewood is laughable. Gensets certainly aren't "necessary". Either is a long ways from starting to choose a TV.

First, cut the risks. Do that by some basics. Don't assume.

Too many of these threads are rife with a small piece of "knowledge" (unearned ) leading to ends not justified.

Homework pays around here.

Then, go camping.

.

[2SIMBA]

If it helps any we tow a 30' FC with a 2017 F350.

It's the most amazing tow I've ever had...formerly a Chevy guy.

What took us from 250 to 350 (barely any price diff) was that I could load up the long bed with so much more, got the 14k load package with springs adjusted for the heavier loads in the bed plus the big tongue weight these big Airstreams have.

I will say these trucks are much taller (no matter 250 or 350)...making for some challenges when unhooked for parking garages and drive-thru if that matters to you. We basically need 7' clearance anywhere.

We also have the diesel version with 48g gas tank....towing our 30 takes us about 500 miles away on one tank....just something I never had before this type of truck.

[Brawny]

My wife and I just returned from a fantastic 2 week vacation, travelling from London, Ontario to Forillon National Park in the Gaspe region of Quebec, then around New Brunswick before returning home. All in all, somewhere around 4500 kms (or roughly 2800 miles for our American friends).

We have a 2004 30ft Classic, with rear bedroom, and we tow with a 2013 Dodge Grand Caravan with the 3.6L Duratech engine, using a Hensley hitch. Andy Thompson at CanAm did the hitch work (actually, it wasn't Andy himself, but one of technicians in CanAm's service department. It was a routine install for them.)

The Grand Caravan tows the AS fine. We travel at 100 kph/60 mph on the highway. We could go faster, but I try to keep the engine revs as low as I can to save on fuel.

Some of the hills in the Gaspe were steeper than I expected, but the Grand Caravan didn't have any problem with them. I let the transmission gear down on the climbs, and the van just chugged to the top. Yes, at times it was in second gear, but that's to be expected. On the way down some of the hills, I'd gear down to keep my speed under 50 kph/30 mph, as there were blind turns at the bottom on some. At one point, a few hours into a particularly steep section near Grand Vallee we had to park for a while to let the brakes cool, which was fine as we used it as a fuel stop as well.

I'm happy with my TV, especially after this trip. Yes, it would be nice to have something with a bit more power, but really the only thing I would change would be to improve the braking on the trailer by switching to disc brakes to remove brake fade.

We use our Caravan as our daily driver, and plan to do so until its worn out. We'll probably buy another used Caravan to replace it, since we can get about 3 of them for the cost of one big pickup. If we decide to travel out west, I'll probably reconsider, but for what we're doing now, our minivan works just fine!

I've attached a couple pics taken en route (Sorry if they show sideways!) If you ever get a chance to visit the area, I can't recommend it enough!

[KCCO]

Originally Posted by slowmover

Did you not notice that this and many other threads are often open-ended questions? Mistaking particulars for generalities (and the reverse) is common, so feel welcome.

But "what is best?" hasn't anything to do with the amount of junk one carries.

That's a separate question.

And, "Lifestyle" is a meaningless word.

Clearing wrong assumptions is about basics. Necessary, versus "what we think we want".

Firewood is laughable. Gensets certainly aren't "necessary". Either is a long ways from starting to choose a TV.

First, cut the risks. Do that by some basics. Don't assume.

Too many of these threads are rife with a small piece of "knowledge" (unearned ) leading to ends not justified.

Homework pays around here.

Then, go camping.

.

The arrogance in your posts is laughable.

How a person camps, where they camp, and how much they camp are obvious inputs into the "what's the best tow vehicle for me" equation. Those are some of the particulars you speak of.

Who are you to tell people the things they take with them camping are meaningless, laughable, and aren't necessary?

Best is indeed different for all of us.

Do smaller vehicles make great tow vehicles for some? Yes.

Do larger trucks make great tow vehicles for some? Yes.

[Brawny]

Originally Posted by Brawny

My wife and I just returned from a fantastic 2 week vacation, travelling from London, Ontario to Forillon National Park in the Gaspe region of Quebec, then around New Brunswick before returning home. All in all, somewhere around 4500 kms (or roughly 2800 miles for our American friends).
...
I've attached a couple pics taken en route (Sorry if they show sideways!) If you ever get a chance to visit the area, I can't recommend it enough!

Hoping the pics come out upright now!

[KCCO]

Originally Posted by Brawny

Hoping the pics come out upright now!

Looks like it was a great trip!

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by KCCO

The arrogance in your posts is laughable.

How a person camps, where they camp, and how much they camp are obvious inputs into the "what's the best tow vehicle for me" equation. Those are some of the particulars you speak of.

Who are you to tell people the things they take with them camping are meaningless, laughable, and aren't necessary?

Best is indeed different for all of us.

Do smaller vehicles make great tow vehicles for some? Yes.

Do larger trucks make great tow vehicles for some? Yes.

Learn to read. You more than missed the points. What's necessary is different from assumptions and desires. What's necessary isn't a minor tradeoff.

.And firewood is laughable. Someone would put them their family at higher risk the rest of the year in order to carry on firewood a few times?

Get down to basics. Start from there.

[Jeff K.]

I had a 2013 Ford F 150 with the 5 liter engine. It was pitiful. I bought a Ram 2500 with the Cummins Diesel. What a great truck! Not only do you great power but you also great braking from the engine exhaust brake. In " Tow Mode" I seldom use my brakes to descend hills or stop coming off the highway. The exhaust brake does it all. With the new emission system the engine exhaust is only a small amount of carbon soot, nitrogen, and water. No CO2 or acids come out the tailpipe. The cleanest vehicles on the road. I also get 14 mpg towing a loaded 1975 31 foot Sovereign. It's at about 7300 pounds this trip. When towing the transmission and engine temperatures don't even budge from normal running conditions. I got a pretty stripped model at listed at 52K. The Diesel engine package is a pricey option but I run my vehicles a lot of miles so it pays off for me.

[crispyboy]

We spent the week of 4th of July in the mountains of eastern KY, Virginia and the Smokies in Tennessee. There are many steep grades and switch backs involved along with Interstate travel on the way home. Pulling a 30' trailer it is was very reassuring that I have a 3/4 ton truck that was engineered from the ground up for this job. Sorry Slowmover - have to disagree with your hatred of pickup trucks.
This trip could have been done with a lesser vehicle but then I would have to be worried about overheating the engine, transmission and service brakes.

To the OP - what many have said it is important to analyze the critical factors such as weight and a proper hitch set up but don't skimp on your tow vehicle. You have a large, heavy, long trailer and a 3/4 ton truck of any brand would be the logical place to start.

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by crispyboy

We spent the week of 4th of July in the mountains of eastern KY, Virginia and the Smokies in Tennessee. There are many steep grades and switch backs involved along with Interstate travel on the way home. Pulling a 30' trailer it is was very reassuring that I have a 3/4 ton truck that was engineered from the ground up for this job. Sorry Slowmover - have to disagree with your hatred of pickup trucks.
This trip could have been done with a lesser vehicle but then I would have to be worried about overheating the engine, transmission and service brakes.

To the OP - what many have said it is important to analyze the critical factors such as weight and a proper hitch set up but don't skimp on your tow vehicle. You have a large, heavy, long trailer and a 3/4 ton truck of any brand would be the logical place to start.

I own the same truck as you.

The singular difference between a car with a given engine and a pickup with the same is that the pickup "might" have larger coolant capacity. Maybe lower Drive Axle gearing.

And, the pickup has greater cargo capacity.

That's it for the pickup "advantage".

"Engineered to Tow" is funny. Is that part of someone's marketing?

The negatives for any pickup are a long list.

To listen around here, I just can't understand how we used cars across the US, Mexico and Canada from the 1960s onwards with 30' TTs heavier than the comparable Airstream. Had to listen to that poor motor run 2800-rpm all day. Still would last to 200k without a valve job. Etc.

Upgrading trailer brakes to disc would matter. Those who tow at 65+ have NO trailer brakes before finishing an emergency stop. Or, with some badly chosen grade descent speed plus tactics.

Steering and braking matter. The rest is add-ons.

.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

Well, a bit off topic, but "how did we tow 30' Airstreams in the 60's?" (yes, I rephrased that a bit from above ..) is a valid question. Not really an answer to anything, but some history tidbits.

A randomly picked by the ever wise Mr Google 1966 Airstream 30' Sovereign:

https://www.airstream.com/wp-content...0110i.arc_.pdf

Came in at 4,750 pounds. My 30' Classic comes in at almost 2X that. As long as you kept the '66 empty it would fit in with a lot of todays "5,000 lb tow" vehicles. It had full electric brakes. . It may well have the same size brakes as my 2017 .... yikes !!!

A Chevy Impala back then weighted about what one does today. The old one had a lot more in the structure of the vehicle and a lot less in the drive train. You would have to be a bit nuts to drive one at today's speeds. Don't ask how I know this .... Not the high speed racer we get today. A much better "stuff hauler" though.

I can't say I remember a lot of 70 MHP speed limits back in the mid 60's either, let alone people pushing things to 80 or 90. A "slow mover" on the flats back then was 40 MPH and there were a number of them. I believe the ever popular PA Turnpike would have had you running with a 50 MPH limit on a trailer in that era.

I *do* remember spending a non trivial amount of money and time repairing vehicles we used for towing in the 1960's. Some of that time was in lovely out of the way locations, waiting for things like transmissions. How ever long you got out of a "normal" car, the expectation was you'd get a lot less using it as a tow. We pretty much always had trouble on tow vehicles and so did everybody around us.

Bob

[Moflash]

Airstream trailers were much lighter in the 60's and cars were longer wheelbase and heavier.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Jeff K.

With the new emission system the engine exhaust is only a small amount of carbon soot, nitrogen, and water. No CO2 or acids come out the tailpipe. The cleanest vehicles on the road.

That is what we call 'drinking the Koolaid'. Your emission control system doesn't eliminate harmful emissions, it reduces them. And that is when it is working as designed and sold. Numerous reports and lawsuits allege that it doesn't do what it was represented to do when it was sold. Seems Cummins and RAM are having some difficulty determining whose fault that is. We'll have to wait and see how it shakes out.

As to CO2, it is about 22 lbs emitted per gallon of diesel burned.

Diesel powered vehicles are far from being the cleanest on the road, despite advertising campaigns using phrases such as clean diesel and Eco diesel.