Tow vehicle planning

[AdvToaster]

Originally Posted by jeffmc306

Hi Jeremy, the grill thermometer is my freezer/fridge monitor! I have a Big Green Egg grill and a ThermoWorks Smoke 2 channel alarm. It’s got a 300 ft. Range. Our GlobeTrotter has a 3-way fridge and I wanted to make sure when running on 12v it was cooling enough. We ran the main monitor 12 days straight and use the remote when on the road. You can set high and low alarm points and it will beep if temps go out of range.

https://www.thermoworks.com/Smoke

Here’s a photo of 10 hour pork shoulder smoke for pulled pork.

That's a brilliant idea, I'm totally stealing it. The pork looks amazing!

Originally Posted by DC Bruce

My wife and fulltimed in a Sierra 1500, pulling an FC 27. The truck payload is 1940 lbs per the door sticker. We, plus our 90 lb. dog used every bit of that capacity. We are perfectly happy with that arrangement, but if I were pulling a 30, I’d go for a 2500/250 for the extra payload. Both GM and Ford have new gas engines for their 3/4 tons. We test drove a Ram with the 6.4 gas engine and I thought it drove very well. For sure the 3/4 tons, with their longer wheelbase than the half ton short beds (like we have) are heavier and more ponderous to drive. To pull an Airstream you don’t need the extra capacity of the diesel. The gas engines in today’s 3/4 tons are plenty capable (unlike a few years ago) and whatever fuel economy benefits from the diesel are negated by the higher price of the fuel as compared to regular or mid grade gas.
Another point, I’ve run into some Ecoboost owners who complain about the relative lack of engine braking on their truck. This is because of the small displacement of the engine. My truck’s engine, at 6.2 liters is almost twice as big and I don’t have that complaint. All the gas engines in the 3/4 tons are even bigger than mine, so they should be ok. That said, IMHO the only reason to go for one of the 3/4 ton diesels is their exhaust brakes, which are superior at holding speed on a downhill grade. So you have to think about that, the weight of your trailer, where you’re going to be driving and your driving style (I.e. how fast do you want to go). You can certainly descend big grades in the Rockies safely with a gas engine, but you might need to start the downhill more slowly and descend more slowly. The energy of your vehicle (which is what the brakes have to dissipate) increases with the square of speed, so slowing down and keeping slow a little can make a big difference in how much work your braking system has to do.

Thanks for the input there. I hadn't thought about engine braking with the EcoBoost, but it makes sense. I'm sure the exhaust brakes on the diesels are great, but if we go with the F250 I'd be surprised if a 7.3L gas engine didn't provide plenty of engine braking itself.

Originally Posted by kendrick.l.j

<~~~ 5’3”, female with a 30’ Classic and a 2500 TV as my daily driver. Would not even consider a smaller truck. Previous vehicle was a Mini Cooper. When you go to test drive trucks she’ll need to go as well because they do feel slightly different. Trucks today are super easy to drive and handling is excellent. I got the running board which makes getting in easy.
One of the things I’ve noticed when I switched from my Mini to the truck is that I’m cut off less often in the truck and because it’s so much taller I can easily see above other cars which I prefer. I loved my Mini Cooper but I feel safer in the truck.

Wonderful to hear, thank you! I showed your post to my wife and she was glad to read it, and got a laugh out of the part about being cut off. That happens to her all the time in her VW, but not when she drives my Jeep.

Originally Posted by ForteePlus

We ordered an F250 and Ford is due to start building in 2 days. After a year plus of reading, visiting various dealerships and thinking, we opted for the 4x2 for a few reasons, one of which is my wife’s ability to climb into the 4x4’s is limited. It’s kinda of surprising how much lower a 4x2 is vs stepping into a 4x4.
The 4x2’s are difficult to find, but it might be worth considering.

No Airstream yet, but we’re leaning heavily to the 30 FC in our upcoming retirement.

Have fun!

We'll definitely be going 4x4, as we like to venture off pavement frequently (though we obviously won't do so much of that while towing). I know a truck as big as the F250 isn't an ideal off-roader, but after years of owning Jeeps I can't give up the dirt life entirely!

Originally Posted by JonDNC

Also regarding truck height, make sure you look at a truck with retractable boards, they are lower than the fixed ones. Our F350 Platinum FX4 has a lower step in height (but taller overall) than our old Sierra 1500 did with fixed boards.

Power running boards are on the must-have list. The wife likes the lower step-in height, and I like the increased ground clearance. Win win!

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by AdvToaster

I know threads about "proper" tow vehicles abound, and I've read many of them, but haven't found any that exactly match my details, so I want to ask the experts to double check my math/sanity.

The background story: The wife and I are considering making the move to full-timing. We don't currently own a trailer (or TV), but are planning on getting a Serenity 30RB. We looked at smaller options and none of them felt like "home", but the 30RB did instantly.

We're looking at a 2019 (or probably 2020 by the time we're ready) F150 Lariat SuperCrew 6.5' bed 3.5 EcoBoost. The tow rating says 12,900 lbs, with an 18,400 GCWR. Door jamb sticker on one configured the way we want it listed payload at 1634.

With the trailer GVWR being 8800 we're obviously good there.

Airstream lists tongue as 864# for the trailer, so we're down to 770# payload left. I estimate about 100# for WDH, and 50# for a Honda 2200 genset, bringing us to 620#. Wife and I combined are under 300# (420# left), and the only other thing we plan to carry in the bed is a few bikes, weighing in at a combined 75# (345# remaining).

Am I missing anything or is this doable?


I looked at stepping up to an F250, but my wife is only 5'2 and she was very uncomfortable with a truck that large, especially since it will be our only vehicle.

Thanks folks!

- Jeremy

The primary cause of travel trailer accidents is wind. Not weight. The first will lead you in the right direction (road-going stability). The latter will take you to the worst possible TV.

1). Solo miles predominate. Full time or not. The TV best suited to that duty is close to the best TV. A pickup only if IRS business miles deductions apply. The compromised stability by design assumes a heavy constant load.

— the best TV will be with a short rear overhang (axle center to hitch hall distance), with fully independent suspension. Low Center of Gravity also.

— a pickup will be The Cause of a loss-of-control accident due to 1930’s suspension design and high gravity center. An AS is the most stable-by-design TT currently available. It is more stable at a higher speed than a pickup when behind a better choice of TV.

2). What is it you’re carrying along that CANNOT go in the TV passenger compartment or the TT? Determine dimensions & weight.

— if the placement for that gear doesn’t require it be in the bed, a pickup is neither needed nor desirable. Assemble that gear and cross the CAT Scale with and without it (get phone app).

3). A 1,200-lb hitch TW is the province of cars. Payload is not an applicable category (see your scale ticket from above. What was the weight increase per axle?) as a WDH properly adjusted (90%+ aren’t) re-distributes TW among all three points: Steer, Drive & Trailer.

— approx 77% will remain on TV. Thus, 411 to Steer and 501 Drive. 288 to Trailer Axles. The old rule of thumb was 1/3-1/3-1/3. Best was where the Drive showed 10% greater than Steer.

— one works with axle, tire, wheel weight limits. In commercial work, it’s the legal limit set. “Payload” is a marketing term. Zero legal applicability, thus no insurance concern.

4). What matters at the end is the tire contact patch: the one that is narrow with weight high above it is the one that WILL lose traction compared to a wider contact patch with weight down low. Total vehicle weight works against you in the first, as it does with braking. Total brake swept area comparisons per lb of TV weight tell the story.

The new guys with ten, twenty years have never used anything but a pickup. Believe that not being able to feel the trailer connotes a better TV when in fact it MEANS that trailer problems are too far gone to correct by the time they’re felt at the wheel. Crude suspension thus handling makes correction impossible in what sliver of time remains.

Couple that to not being willing to get hitch rigging correct (it is EQUAL in value to both vehicles) and braking winds up being ONLY the TV Steer Axle and the forward TT axle. Effectively cutting brake power in half.

So when you read of someone trading from a half-ton to a one ton, now you know why:

A). Pickup bed loaded so that TV weight bias is still heavily Steer Axle biased before hitching.

B). Failure to get the trailer level once hitch according to a carpenters level placed in the doorway.

C). Failure to adequately distribute TW to spec (restoration of solo Steer Axle weight value as starting mark).

OP, if you wish to make your research worthwhile, read EVERY post & thread by contributor Andrew_T. And then at his family’s RV dealership website, CAN AM RV (as well as his column Hitch Hints in RV Lifestyle magazine). He’s consultant to both Airstream and SAE on this subject. They’ve set up more than 12,000 tow combinations the last half-century.

Which is how long ago I first learned as REESE came out with its WDH in 1967. We used cars to travel all of North and down towards Central America. Those cars weren’t bigger or stronger than what’s available now. But with only a few upgrades are still better than any pickup of any era.

The pickup is the higher risk of injury choice. Solo or towing.

Take a trip to London, ON. They keep a variety of TVs available for test drive combinations. With Andy at the wheel of the hottest, you’ll lose the childishly ignorant TV advertising mentality found around here.

What matters is braking, handling, steering. Nothing else.

I drive for a living. The road population is the worst it’s ever been and getting more so every year. Cut the risks, don’t increase them by bad vehicle spec (and bad hitch rigging.)

Your pickup truck buddies here are notable for dragging a nose-down AS trailer hopping along on the front axle AND with execrable driving skill on display as well. They’ve created problems, and then make them worse.

(Anti-lock TT disc brakes — TUSON — plus a Hensley-patent hitch should be automatic check marks on your list).

.

[Profxd]

Keep in mind that the person above tows his AS with a diesel pickup truck.

[AdvToaster]

Originally Posted by Profxd

Keep in mind that the person above tows his AS with a diesel pickup truck.

Thanks, yeah, I’ve noticed. Doesn’t matter, a truck is a requirement as I plan to carry mountain bikes and other dirty things in the back, and there’s no other type of vehicle on the market that has high enough tow ratings anyway. Sure you can “make” something else work, but I like it when my insurance company pays out, and I like not being held liable for accidents.

[ForteePlus]

As an FYI, we just picked up our F-250 on Friday. The sales manager we were dealing with mentioned the 2020 4x4 Super Duty's are going to be lower than the current offerings. By how much he didn't know, but seems the current height is overkill. Most can not even reach into the bed from the side and grab a shovel off the floor without having a footstool.

[AdvToaster]

Originally Posted by ForteePlus

As an FYI, we just picked up our F-250 on Friday. The sales manager we were dealing with mentioned the 2020 4x4 Super Duty's are going to be lower than the current offerings. By how much he didn't know, but seems the current height is overkill. Most can not even reach into the bed from the side and grab a shovel off the floor without having a footstool.

The 2020 F250 is supposed to drop by about 1 1/4" in the back, with the front being the same height. It's not a huge difference, but it's something. I've also read of some very simple ways to lower an F250 without compromising its weight carrying capacity. Apparently the F250 uses some rather tall blocks one the rear axle that can be easily replaced with shorter ones.

Either way, with the power steps it doesn't seem like the height will be an issue.

[Moflash]

We started our Airstream experience with a new F150 and felt that the 28ft International was too much for this vehicles designed use.It pulled it ,stopped it and turned it but it wasn’t a warm and fuzzy experience.We have since had three new F350’s (2012,2015,2017)which ride exactly the same as a F250 by the way.Spend the extra $600 for the F350 and never worry about counting loaded gear weight or passengers.Rides smooth loaded and unloaded,whisper quiet and comfortable.

[out of sight]

One problem with a 350 is that it's over 10,000 lbs GVWR. A 250 comes in at 9800. Essentially its the same vehicle but some states make registration onerous for vehicles over 10,000.

[Moflash]

Originally Posted by kscherzi

I tow a 27FB with a 2017 F150, payload sticker about 1650 lbs. Trailer tongue weighs 900 lbs according to the scale. Wife, myself, and large dog (400 lbs). Camp chairs, generator, ice chest, golf clubs, tool box, ladder, cleaning supplies, etc, in the truck bed. Been to Alaska and various other destinations for months at a time, over 30,000 miles.

Everything within axle GAWR spec according to CAT scales with room to spare. A well set up weight distribution hitch will move some of the payload you've calculated back onto the trailer axles. Also, the sum of the front and rear GAWR ratings (minus actual weight of your empty truck) will show true perfectly balanced payload to be one or two hundred pounds higher.

I chose the F150 as it's also my daily driver and find it difficult enough to drive and park in urban areas. A F250 or 350 hauls more stuff but a compromise when unhitched.

BTW - Rig pulls over steep grades like found in the Rocky's just fine contrary to assertions that will be made. It also stops fine and quickly enough.

Nonetheless, I predict in a few threads further you'll be advised to purchase a one ton diesel truck otherwise you'll be a deadly threat to yourself and those around you. Good luck with your decision.

I have pulled the same 28ft International with both trucks (F150 and F350 all new)that you mention.Yes you can pull a larger Airstream with a F150 and yes you can make it up the Rocky Mountains but is it the best choice and the most comfortable if you have the money to buy what you want.No. They build different series of trucks for a reason, they all have been designed for different purposes and have different capabilities.A F150 is a great truck and is perfect for some smaller Airstreams but I as others have found that moving to a F250 or F350 to towing experience is much better for the larger Airstream variants.Obviously by your statement you have not taken a test drive in a new F250 or F350 as for the day to day drivability they are both great and are nothing like their predecessors that ride like dump trucks.F150’s ,F250’s and F350’s are all considered light duty trucks.
And hey if you enjoy counting the weight of all your gear ,passengers and tongue weight.Fiddling with your WD hitch to transfer another 15lbs to you front axle and posting it to the forums I get it.Me I prefer to opt out and just enjoy the trip........Peace out

[Daquenzer]

This idea you can’t pull a 28’ with an F150 is nonsense. I pull my 28’ with an F150 just fine. With a propride hitch and a roadmaster suspension system my pickup is incredibly stable. I have no problem stopping, turning, keeping up with traffic, and driving in traffic. Totally relaxed towing.

If you want an F150 with more payload get the Heavy Duty Payload package. By the way if you use your F250 for daily driving you might get 13mpg. That’s why I don’t have an F250.

My next pickup will be the F150 Heavy Duty Payload. Has just as much payload as a diesel. Also you can turn your Ecoboost to tow better in the mountains with a tuner. Check it out on TFL truck. After tuning they only did 3 break applications going down a 7% grade for eight miles.

And if you think an F250 will drive like an F150 guess again. They don’t. You may not notice while towing, but when not towing you will definitely notice.

[out of sight]

You can of course tow a 28 with an F 150, but you will need a weight distribution hitch to keep from overloading the rear axle. Then, because youre taking weight off the rear axle, it will be prone to sway and you will need a sway control device. An F 250 can tow the 28 without a wd or sway control hitch.

In general you want your tow vehicle to weigh more than your trailer for adequate stability. The F 150 weighs less and you have to tow more slowly and carefully.

[SteveSueMac]

Why do you insist on peddling such nonsense? It’s great to be a one trick pony if the trick is entertaining....

If your argument for a 250 v 150 was based on cargo capacity, that would make sense. Your endless obsession with towing on the ball and jamming the drive axle does not.

[Xbc3]

Ford has a new F-150 commercial out. I've seen it several time on the World Series broadcasts. It shows F-150'S towing a number of different trailers. A trailer full of hay, a small horse trailer, a trailer full of sports equipment, etc. In all these cases, they have the bed of the F-150 full of stuff. But somewhere in the commercial, it shows an F-150 pulling an Airstream. It is hard to tell from the angle what size/model of AS it is. But they seemingly intentionally scan around to look out of the AS front window... into the empty bed of the F-150. I had to laugh when I saw the bed was empty. It was almost like Ford was commenting on this thread. Sure... you can tow your AS with the F-150 (it is true... I do), but you won't have much payload available (and I don't).

[bono]

If you are taking weight off the rear axle, you need to take it somewhere. It does not disappear. You are transferring this weight to the front axles and trailer axles, which results in combo TV/TT less prone to sway.

Originally Posted by out of sight

You can of course tow a 28 with an F 150, but you will need a weight distribution hitch to keep from overloading the rear axle. Then, because youre taking weight off the rear axle, it will be prone to sway and you will need a sway control device. An F 250 can tow the 28 without a wd or sway control hitch.

In general you want your tow vehicle to weigh more than your trailer for adequate stability. The F 150 weighs less and you have to tow more slowly and carefully.

[5150mike]

"By the way if you use your F250 for daily driving you might get 13mpg."

This comment is NOT true my MPG in my F250 PSD is the same as F150,

[Andrew T]

When we do our track testing a 150/1500 is more capable than the current 2500’s tons in the slalom and emergency lane change. The 2500’s are just too top heavy the Ford and Dodge with their live axle front suspensions are even worse if you add some bumps in.

Proper hitch configuration is just as important on a 250 as a 150. If you hook them both up wrong and drive them straight down the highway the 250 will feel better because the back springs have settled onto the brutally stiff helper springs but there is no depth of control. Also the vague steering feel isolates the driver from what is actually happening. It is a false sense of security. Sitting on the helper springs sure pounds the front structure of the Airstream.

Certainly buy a 2500 if you want one but don’t take it as an excuse to not hitch properly, our testing shows it is even more critical.

[out of sight]

Originally Posted by bono

If you are taking weight off the rear axle, you need to take it somewhere. It does not disappear. You are transferring this weight to the front axles and trailer axles, which results in combo TV/TT less prone to sway.

Your conclusion is backwards. Think of it this way. As you apply WD spring pressure you are taking load off your rear axle and your sidewall stiffness decreases, your springs get softer and your tire friction decreases. Keep cranking up the WD springs and eventually your tires will be off the ground at which point you have zero stability.

[AdvToaster]

Originally Posted by out of sight

Your conclusion is backwards. Think of it this way. As you apply WD spring pressure you are taking load off your rear axle and your sidewall stiffness decreases, your springs get softer and your tire friction decreases. Keep cranking up the WD springs and eventually your tires will be off the ground at which point you have zero stability.

I’m not sure stability would be much of a concern with the back tires off the ground. You’re not going to be going very fast that way.

[out of sight]

I have 4WD.

[bono]

You are talking about extremes: all weight on rear or front axle. Neither will result in optimal conditions for towing and will be more prone for sway. One of the result of proper weight distribution is to minimize risk of sway.

Originally Posted by out of sight

Your conclusion is backwards. Think of it this way. As you apply WD spring pressure you are taking load off your rear axle and your sidewall stiffness decreases, your springs get softer and your tire friction decreases. Keep cranking up the WD springs and eventually your tires will be off the ground at which point you have zero stability.