The Great Payload Mystery

[RandyNH]

So, with the new info and beginning research, I stumbled across this bit, which seems reasonable, that BMW uses a standard sticker to cover all options possibly included and some vehicles may have more payload but none should ever exceed the sticker as built. The different GVWR seems to only be two different numbers depending on whether the rear suspension is air or not, not different for every trim level.

Originally Posted by jcl

For our 2007 BMW X3, the payload sticker is the same as the published number in the spec sheets. This particular vehicle was special ordered, and has practically every option available (panoramic sunroof, premium package, active steering, etc). It appeared to me that BMW printed a standard payload label for the doorframe and just made sure that no combination of options exceeded the design weight target. It is a reasonable approach if actual payload is not considered a marketing/competitive feature that will get them more sales.

While the door stickers are better to rely on than spec sheet numbers, they are not necessarily serial number specific. There was a recent thread with a poster who wondered why his new truck had a payload sticker that didn't seem to follow that rule. He ended up talking to factory engineers (RAM, IIRC) and they advised that their in plant system that printed the labels was not interfaced to the actual build consist computer, so they calculated the payload using a 'typical' option list.

The real way to check is to weight the vehicle as others have suggested. Full tank of fuel. Use the door frame label for GVWR, that is a firm number. The difference is payload.

Jeff

[jcl]

Originally Posted by RandyNH

Okay, BMW was good, very interesting/crazy numbers.... I will say that when they spec 5963 lbs GVWR for an X5, I might be even more inclined to be careful of not exceeding it, seeing as though they believed they couldn't even round it up to 6000

They don't spec lbs. They spec kg. The engineers being from Europe and all. No, it doesn't always produce an even number. Another poster argued somewhat similarly here a while back that weight ratings are decided precisely by the engineers, the evidence being that they aren't even numbers. But they were round numbers in kg.

[james.mileur]

5963 pounds = 2704.771 kilograms
6005 pounds = 2723.822 kg

2700 kg = 5952.481 pounds

Can't find any round numbers, except the one I made up.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by RandyNH

So, with the new info and beginning research, I stumbled across this bit, which seems reasonable, that BMW uses a standard sticker to cover all options possibly included and some vehicles may have more payload but none should ever exceed the sticker as built. The different GVWR seems to only be two different numbers depending on whether the rear suspension is air or not, not different for every trim level.

That is mixing the X3 and the X5. I have an X3 now. I sold my E53 X5. That is the one that had 6005 lbs GVWR. The new F15 X5 is the one I researched payload on. It is the one that comes with an optional third row seat, and various suspension options (one axle air, two axle air, dynamic suspension, etc). I used the factory parts books and rear spring specs.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by james.mileur

5963 pounds = 2704.771 kilograms

2700 kg = 5952.481 pounds

If you would like to do the reverse calculations and see if any particular spec published with an odd number for the US market is that way due to translation, just look up the same vehicle on a website that doesn't use lbs, ie the rest of the world. For BMW, look at .ca, .de, .com, etc, just not BMWUSA.com.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by JMynes

Weight is weight. Rated capacities are (legal) limits.

For an axle rating, as one example, sure. See the FMVSS publications where that weight rating is defined.

Now find a legal definition of GCVWR, or tow rating, that is applicable to other than commercial carriers. Search on DOT and FMVSS to start.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by RandyNH

I actually would like to read it, it as requested, just point me in the right direction to begin the research on the internet (manufacturer information not forum input) I'm more than happy to do the research.

...Your post intrigued me, and I asked for clarification, because if actually true because it goes against everything I've researched

Originally Posted by RandyNH

The different GVWR seems to only be two different numbers depending on whether the rear suspension is air or not, not different for every trim level.

Still travelling, with only an iPad, but the following links should help your research.

https://www.bmw.com/en/all-models/x-...nce.html#tab-0

This is the global BMW manufacturer's site, not the BMWUSA marketing organization site. Scroll down to tech data. See the menu for vehicle config, from the 35i to 35d, with the 50i and 40e hybrid thrown in for good measure. The Euro only models are shown as well. Maximum weight, GVWR, is listed for each variation of the same vehicle.

I see eight different GVWRs, with all but one sport model having the same payload.

Now check out the Canadian site.

https://www.bmw.ca/en/all-models/x-s...ecs.html#tab-0

I see seven different GVWRs, due to engine variations and number of rows of seating. Payload isn't shown on this chart, and the actual figures vary from the global figures because BMW ca includes 90% fuel, a driver, and a briefcase, or at least some type of luggage that only weighs 7 kg.

But the point remains, that it is the GVWR that is varying. BMW does their engineering in Europe, but only builds this vehicle in the US, for the global market. There are differences in spring rates, and details like options, but the basic vehicle is the same.

So, if GVWR was some sort of maximum figure beyond which things would start breaking, how to explain the variability? Perhaps we could agree that GVWR matters, but to consider it as having the sort of significance that many place on it just doesn't compute. At least for this example. Now some will say that this isn't a typical tow vehicle. Fair enough. Maybe it is only North American pickups that are sold with specs so close to their design limits.

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by JMynes

I still respectfully disagree.

Weight is weight. Rated capacities are (legal) limits.

Thanks for the kind words.

What weight? Where?

Payload & Towing as Legal limits ? Nope. Zero. Nada.

You want a better set-up get a TARE weight for that TV of yours (as above). Start a thread. And on another day utilize the three-pass scale method for WD (after first roughing it in at home using A. Thomsons directions). And some profile pics while the rig is on the scale during the first (WD tensioned) pass. Then of the hitch between the vehicles. Examples on this forum. How help works.

And in those trips some work on TV tire pressures. According to Load. Ask.

Then maybe you'll figure out respect is two way. Your better rig and the record of how it was done is part of that. Not to mention that in having a numerical baseline, future diagnosis of problems is far simpler.

And you'll be part of a larger solution. Despite using a farm vehicle for a TV. It really matters getting a pickup right. It's the weak link. Will roll before the trailer. Will be the cause of an accident. Before the trailer is even ruffled.

Numbers acquired are the basis of confidence. The starting point.

.

[RandyNH]

Originally Posted by jcl

Still travelling, with only an iPad, but the following links should help your research.

https://www.bmw.com/en/all-models/x-...nce.html#tab-0

Thanks. It appears that they have a "max" GVWR that they work from and then reduce it from that point, based on suspension and wheels, each of the axle weight ratings also fluctuate with the GVWR, the easiest thing to notice is that actual rim size is smaller with the lower ratings, which would make sense as smaller volume equals lower capacity. They also state that MAX permissable for almost all is 715Kg, which appears will differ from what real world sticker will be (and as here) which is pretty much the same as here, BMWUSA had a spec that MAX payload was 1565 lbs (something close) again the ability to go down and a 400 lb fluctuating GVWR.
So all-in-all pretty much the same for varying locations, just presented differently.
It is interesting that the European specs are so much more readily available and completely listed whereas here they are difficult to find.
The F-series trucks work the same, look at Ford's towing chart there are like 6 different GVWRs depending on what tire size and setup is spec'd

[jcl]

Originally Posted by RandyNH

Thanks. It appears that they have a "max" GVWR that they work from and then reduce it from that point, based on suspension and wheels, each of the axle weight ratings also fluctuate with the GVWR, the easiest thing to notice is that actual rim size is smaller with the lower ratings, which would make sense as smaller volume equals lower capacity. They also state that MAX permissable for almost all is 715Kg, which appears will differ from what real world sticker will be (and as here) which is pretty much the same as here, BMWUSA had a spec that MAX payload was 1565 lbs (something close) again the ability to go down and a 400 lb fluctuating GVWR.
So all-in-all pretty much the same for varying locations, just presented differently.
It is interesting that the European specs are so much more readily available and completely listed whereas here they are difficult to find.
The F-series trucks work the same, look at Ford's towing chart there are like 6 different GVWRs depending on what tire size and setup is spec'd

The heavier GVWR are generally with the larger engines, which have the larger rims with sport tires. It is for cornering and looks, not load capacity.

The axles are generally the same, it is the coil springs which vary. I replaced two, and they had to be ordered by serial number due to the spec.

They state max payload, but my own vehicle had a door jamb sticker with full spec payload, but a higher GVWR due to installed options. This is not how pickups work. You purchase a standard or optionally higher GVWR and then options reduce payload.

So the example demonstrates the point that the vehicle doesn't have a single max GVWR, but rather a label of convenience.

[inthewoods]

Originally Posted by WhereStream

I drive a 2004 Suburban, the 1500 level, not the heavy duty, and I'm trying to figure out what the payload might be.

Here's the sticker ... I'm sure payload is hidden there, somewhere, but a mystery to me.

Can any decipher the code?

I drive a 2000 Suburban 1500 LS with the 5.3 engine. My sticker has the same Gross vehicle weight rating and axle ratings as yours does.

The stated payload from chevy for mine is 1820lbs. Trips to the scales land me in about the same region give or take a bit.

Practically for me that means I can fill the fuel tank (32gal. ish) and have two adults and 4 children under 10 in the truck along with maybe 100-150lbs of misc cargo spread out across the whole cabin area and my camper's tongue weight (with WD hitch) and I'm just under the maximum ratings for the axles and GVWR. My camper is a '76 23ft Safari with a factory stated tongue weight of 580 lbs... though its not factory spec'd anymore and I don't have an exact read yet on the camper's real tongue weight since some renovations are in progress.

Like others have said though use the CAT scales to verify and have them be deciding factor.

[JMynes]

Originally Posted by inthewoods

Like others have said though use the CAT scales to verify and have them be deciding factor.

No truer words were ever spoken.

[WhereStream]

Hey, inthewoods ... where did you find the "stated payload?"

I can't even find the weight of my Suburban on any stickers or in the owner's manual. If I knew that, at least I could do the math and get a usable figure.

I'll get to a CAT scale when I can find one and weigh each axle.

[inthewoods]

Originally Posted by WhereStream

Hey, inthewoods ... where did you find the "stated payload?"

Well I thought 1820 was the number but didn’t have my notes handy when I posted earlier. So I looked again 1820lbs was the payload I figured I had available based on weighing the truck one time. Like yours my manual doesn’t state payload. All it says is what others have posted. Read the axle ratings from the door sticker and then weigh the truck compare the two numbers and you have your answer.

I compared the scale weights to various online sources where they state a payload in specs for the truck. The sources all vary a bit so I don’t hold any one to be totally trustworthy but they do help give me ballparks and a reference to compare my weigh in too. For my truck and trim level, I see figures anywhere from 1880lbs to 2090lbs give or take a bit. I’m in the ballpark so I’ve got around 1800-1900lbs available to me. One of these days when my gas tank is near empty and no one else is In the truck I’ll get a firm set of weights for the suburban so I have a clear limit to go by.

[inthewoods]

Originally Posted by WhereStream

I'll get to a CAT scale when I can find one and weigh each axle.

Oh and I’m not sure about your area but I usually weigh my rig for free at the commercial scales on the highway. There’s a set of basic transport scales about 12miles from my house on a smaller regional highway and they are on 24/7 with no staff watching it so I just pull in there and roll across the scales and get my weights.

[WhereStream]

I don't think you can use the state's highway scales here in Florida, inthewoods, but I'll check with The DOT office to see. Be great if I can.

If I've got anything close to 1,800 pounds payload, then I'm good to go.

That would give us plenty of margin after factoring in tongue weight, gas and two adults.

Helps, too, that we travel light.

I may get a chance to hit a CAT scale at a Pilot gas-and-go next weekend.

[leje]

Originally Posted by mikeinca

Strictly speaking, you can't determine the actual payload of YOUR specific vehicle equipped with YOUR specific options from that sticker because it doesn't list the curb weight of your truck, just the gross weights. The curb weights being shown in posts above are probably close enough for your purposes but they are approximations with respect to your particular vehicle and it's various options.

I don't know if they were doing this back in 2004 but on current vehicles like my 2017 F150 you will find a sticker like the one shown in the picture below that lists the actual payload number. If you could find a sticker like that on your Suburban then not only would you have your payload, but you could also calculate your curb weight by subtracting it from the GVWR on the sticker in your picture.

Has anyone weighed their vehicle and found large discrepancies? I was a few hundred pounds different from what the sticker said on my Denali HD. I weighed with a full tank of fuel, a stock truck and my normal tools in the truck and my calculated payload was higher than what the sticker said.

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by leje

Has anyone weighed their vehicle and found large discrepancies? I was a few hundred pounds different from what the sticker said on my Denali HD. I weighed with a full tank of fuel, a stock truck and my normal tools in the truck and my calculated payload was higher than what the sticker said.

Yes...there are always "large" discrepancies, especially if you define large as a couple hundred pounds.
There wouldn't be if the vehicle was weighed at the end of the assembly line with full fuel and two adults>>>it's not, hence the variables.

Figuring payload is not difficult, it's a matter of weight ratings and "actual" weight.

By calculated, do you mean you were carrying more than the sticker estimated payload allowed?....or you have more payload that you thought?

Bob

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by leje

Has anyone weighed their vehicle and found large discrepancies? I was a few hundred pounds different from what the sticker said on my Denali HD. I weighed with a full tank of fuel, a stock truck and my normal tools in the truck and my calculated payload was higher than what the sticker said.

Snap pics of scale ticket and door sticker. Post them. Useful to others. The TARE weight you've done is the correct first step.

Same for tire pressure. The post-2008 vehicles have "corrected" (tested, revised) pressure recommendations on door sticker.

As to those TV tire pressures, start at the low end. The minimum per Load & Pressure Table for that tire class (but inside door sticker range). Should have no more than 5-7% pressure rise after 1.5-hours steady state highway driving.

Getting a handle on this (vehicle feel) is big. Suspension tuning via tire pressure is not where to go. Just looking for an all-purpose solo minimum at this stage.

Tire wear -- given adequate pressure -- is more about driving habits. Late braking into turns, hard stops, etc are to be eliminated. From all driving, not just when towing. Brakes & tires ought to last 70k or more given a premium tire choice (mine last 100-120k).

The OP has asked about payload. With a TARE weight and tested minimal pressure (which might be above first setting), and willingness to acquire better habits at the wheel, one wants ones habits to be consistent for all occasions. Empty or loaded or towing are not applicable as a category. As those categories are marks on paper, NOT excuses any longer for bad habits. Muscle memory, for you shooters.

Thus the second use of a solo vehicle is to give the TV a load representative of pax and their gear. 600-lb? Simulate. Leave it that way, for the most part. A fuel economy strategy I've used forty-four years is: Never Stop, and Never Idle. The advice is to learn to work the traffic flow to ones advantage, instead of the brain-dead opposite. With a load on board (secured). (Though I don't always it isn't hard for me to run around town at a 23-mpg average in this four-ton pickup. Vehicle spec, climate, terrain and driver motivation all addressed. A few decades of practice besides. Towing FE penalty reductions are ongoing).

If one is driving solo as one were driving while towing, this is easier to imagine. Ahead of turning the key. Best route, smooth inputs.

Vehicle-spacing is the control. Not the speed limit.

You see, when one lets off the throttle, slack in the hitch rigging is introduced. That means vulnerability. (Braking is also a time of vulnerability). Yet best driving is TRAILER lane-centered in all situations, with minimal throttle. So acceleration and cruising is NOT to be tied to what other traffic is doing. Let them get well away. Ones time in transitional states will eventually leave ones ass chewed off without that minimization. Takes once.

Here's an example. Following too closely on a Interstate (anything under 200') and slowing -- then suddenly braking -- into construction down to one lane and across the median with a road camber change in both directions from original yet still too fast even though at posted limit. Following too closely. Too fast for conditions.

One can't brake hard enough or fast enough (and this will change the relation between the two vehicles already on two different planes due to road camber changes) such that the TV will come short, and the TT go long (out of normal alignment range). Hit a barrier? Check. Roll? Entirely possible, as it just happened to one of the men here.

Biggest problem of this situation is not being able to read road surface/lane width, etc., well out ahead. Problems cascade from there.

How the TV feels in solo/empty operation is the control for solo/loaded. And for loaded/towing. Steering and handling. (The longer heavier and more crude is the TV, the more imagination has to be used. Can't be felt. Bad mojo increase on square). One learns to read the road surface, and usually for the first time.

How one drives is the thing. Everywhere and always.

Thus best hitch rigging most closely approximates solo feel. Tracking.

It's a rookie opines, "I'm quite cautious when towing" (Ha!). As I hope you see, that's right up their with, "Never knew that trailer was back there.

So

Give me a look at the tires of Mr Cautious. Probably won't need brake service intervals history, but they'll together put the lie to that claim. (As he doesn't understand what is caution).

Ones families life and health rides on those tires. The tire contact patch of the TV rear axle is the whole shebang. Any day or any time.

Gentlemen, kick the teenager out of the drivers seat. Records (beginning with scale tickets, and logging tire pressure changes, etc) set the stage. Planning routes, and discipline to maintain space. New habits.

13-weeks, at least.

Zero the scope. Mean Point Blank is that 200-feet. Aimpoint.

Obtain the baseline thru method, tests, and records. Is the start.

.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

Just as things like spacing distance matter, so do things like driver fatigue. Packing up the campsite and dogs starting at midnight to roll out before 1 AM (in order to drive in less traffic) has it's impact. If this is the time of day you normally sleep .... that has an effect. There are parts of the country where things don't go nuts starting at 6AM. Equally, there are parts of the country where 6AM to midnight is going to have "crowded" roads.

Another minor issue - as we get older, some of us don't have quite the night vision we once had. Glare and the like are more of a problem. Driving in the middle of the night becomes a bit more of a challenge than it once was.

Lots of variables .....

Bob