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Old 08-26-2009, 11:47 PM   #57
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New simple meaning to the 80%/20% rule.

Hi, simply put,......... 80% of us are set-up reasonably proper and the other 20% are living dangerously.
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Old 08-27-2009, 07:15 PM   #58
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I would be more likely to trust a plane's ratings than those of an auto manufacturer. I think there are a lot more regulations controlling airplane safety than those concerning autos and trucks. The public doesn't accept airplanes falling out of the sky, but does accept badly made trucks and 40,000 deaths/year on the highways.

It's true that if you have accident towing a trailer and are at 95% of truck ratings, you could sue the manufacturer, but the cost of the lawsuit would be enormous. You would have to hire experts who could show the ratings were wrong and the manufacturer would try to prove it was the driver, not the tow vehicle. A class action is difficult and would require hundreds or thousands of truck owners who have had the same experience.

My belief the best thing to do whether or not you use the 80, 85, 90% rule, or go to 100%, is to choose a tow vehicle from a manufacturer that produces the most reliable vehicles that rarely have problems.

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Old 08-27-2009, 08:29 PM   #59
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Good points, Gene; aviation industry is held to a higher standard than motor vehicles with regard to maintenance, inspection, specification, and pilot qualification.

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Old 08-27-2009, 10:34 PM   #60
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I assume when you are talking about aviation, you mean commercial flights with highly trained pilots... and where carriers have a strong profit incentive to keep planes from falling out of the sky. Yes, flying in commercial aviation is safer than driving, but I don't think it's about "public outcry." There are about 28,000 commercial pilots in the U.S. and there are about 200 million drivers. As the number would indicate, it's a little easier getting a driver's license than getting a license to fly a commercial jet. Over 40 percent of driving fatalities are alcohol related. Commercial airlines pilots face strict requirements (and sanctions) related to alcohol or drug use. In short, commercial airline pilots are carefully screened, highly trained, highly paid professionals. If you put the same people behind the wheel of Greyhound buses (and paid them six figures)... I imagine the accident rate would be very low.

The single most important factor in safe driving and/or towing is the operator... not the vehicle. I imagine the real 80/20 rule is that 20 percent of drivers cause 80 percent of accidents... people who drive too fast, people who drive impaired, people who drive distracted (talking, eating, texting, etc.). A relatively small percentage of accidents are due to catastrophic mechanical failure. Sure, if you tow at or near capacity, a vehicle is likely to wear out more quickly... but how you drive is far more important than what you drive, at least in this man's opinion.
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Old 08-30-2009, 09:05 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by hampstead38 View Post
I assume when you are talking about aviation, you mean commercial flights with highly trained pilots... and where carriers have a strong profit incentive to keep planes from falling out of the sky. Yes, flying in commercial aviation is safer than driving, but I don't think it's about "public outcry." There are about 28,000 commercial pilots in the U.S. and there are about 200 million drivers. As the number would indicate, it's a little easier getting a driver's license than getting a license to fly a commercial jet. Over 40 percent of driving fatalities are alcohol related. Commercial airlines pilots face strict requirements (and sanctions) related to alcohol or drug use. In short, commercial airline pilots are carefully screened, highly trained, highly paid professionals. If you put the same people behind the wheel of Greyhound buses (and paid them six figures)... I imagine the accident rate would be very low.

The single most important factor in safe driving and/or towing is the operator... not the vehicle. I imagine the real 80/20 rule is that 20 percent of drivers cause 80 percent of accidents... people who drive too fast, people who drive impaired, people who drive distracted (talking, eating, texting, etc.). A relatively small percentage of accidents are due to catastrophic mechanical failure. Sure, if you tow at or near capacity, a vehicle is likely to wear out more quickly... but how you drive is far more important than what you drive, at least in this man's opinion.
Thank you!!! Well said. Adios, John
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Old 09-01-2009, 09:10 PM   #62
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The standards for aircraft are much higher than automobiles. Aircraft parts are ermoved and thrown away no matter what they look like, just because those parts have reach the hour service limit for those parts.

Automobiles are rarely maintained to that standard! Heck they aren't maintained to the manufacturer's service standard. Many automobile operators will drive past the recommeded service interval. Doing this in an aircraft is almost unheard of! On a daily driver do owners check all fluid levels and tire pressure every time before turning the key. Or at least once a day or a week? My guess is commercial aircraft in use are looked at if not daily at least every week.

80% is a good guide for the average vehicle maintained in the average way. However it is not from a manufacturers. Just a nice guide.

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Old 09-11-2009, 07:31 PM   #63
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It just doesn't make sense to me why anyone would want to push it and try to reach 100%. What if the ratings are just wrong? At all -- for any reason -- ever? I am not willing to risk my life or my TV or A/S. I mean what if your tired and not paying as much attention or something changed about your airstream or whatever?

I drive a Dodge 3500 dually with an engine brake and a banks kit and there is no where that I can't take my airstream or 3 horse gooseneck(unless the spots too small). I was always taught that for ever 1,000 ft above 6,000ft - 8,000 ft you can count loosing 1,000lbs towing capacity and if you are going to haul up and down 5%-12% grade (like near Yellowstone in Teton pass or heading to Steamboat Springs from Denver) I would guess you are losing more. I am always glad to be over spec'd never did I think, "I wish I had done this in a smaller truck with smaller brakes...." can't say that thought has ever cross my mind. We hauled the a/s back from AZ to WA and went around the hoover dam and I feel sorry for the guys haulding a larger camper that I passed up a huge hill when it was 98 degrees out. They watched open mouthed as we were able to maintain the speed limit.

I look at that thread where they rolled the airstream down a ditch and were almost crushed in their suburban and think thank god for the dually. You know we all have our areas of expertise and if yours is matching the tow rating on your vehicle to the weight of your trailer and you know your TV can handle it and that is where you find joy -- GREAT! but I think I will stick to passing people with my 34ft excella with an above average tow vehicle and conceeding that I like my extra whatever percent. I bet I am closer to 60%/40%.

BTB I have had engine brakes on both of my TV ( I had a 2500 before that) and I love it. They were like 600$ but it was the best piece of mind money that we ever spent esp for the horse trailer.
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Old 09-13-2009, 11:38 AM   #64
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Gee, and I remember crossing Wolf Creek, Monarch and others in a drum brake equipped, less-than-largest-engined sedan pulling 28' trailers. Later, motorhomes near gross with the same poor brake type. Wide open throttle for long distances.

And why would anyone want to maintain the speed limit on a long grade? Extra slow traffic in the other lanes is a sign of caution to slow down; to do otherwise is imprudent.

If the manufacturer errs, it is on the side of caution. Again, the "80% Rule" is for those too involved with a beer and a sports channel to do some investigation and adjustments.

RV'ers need some "help" in this in the form of industry-wide guidelines that are tested. As well, there needs to be a crackdown on all forms of towing where a WDH is mandated yet not used. Annual state inspections would be a good start.
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Old 09-14-2009, 01:36 AM   #65
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Towing License?

Hi, this might ruffle a few feathers, but maybe DMV should have a license and test for trailer owners. I had to take a test to drive my car and I had to take more tests to be licensed to drive motorcycles. I think maybe it's time for a combined vehicle [trailer] license to be added to the list.

No matter what set up you have, whether you tow a 34'er with a Pinto or a 16' Bambi with a Kenworth, DRIVER ABILITY is the most important safety factor. [my opinion]
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Old 09-14-2009, 07:22 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBERTSUNRUS View Post
Hi, this might ruffle a few feathers, but maybe DMV should have a license and test for trailer owners. I had to take a test to drive my car and I had to take more tests to be licensed to drive motorcycles. I think maybe it's time for a combined vehicle [trailer] license to be added to the list.

No matter what set up you have, whether you tow a 34'er with a Pinto or a 16' Bambi with a Kenworth, DRIVER ABILITY is the most important safety factor. [my opinion]

with the explosion in size/scope of fed gubmint, I have to believe this isn't far behind.
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Old 09-14-2009, 08:32 AM   #67
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With all due respect to our aging population, I think a better idea is to do road tests every two years for drivers beyond a given age. Let's be honest... some folks just shouldn't be on the road.
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Old 09-14-2009, 12:02 PM   #68
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The 80% tow rule. Where did it come from?

Not sure, but I suspect the 80% rule was derived based on these facts (anyone notice any common “thread” to these threads?).

Every one of these disasters was with a ½ ton (or lighter) vehicle. Everyone!
It amazes that Folks will continue to split hairs when trying to spec out a TV/TT combination. If you are so close to capacity that you have to count every ounce you are taking with you-stick to backpacking!
There is a reason HD trucks are made. I have not seen a single tail wagging, over loaded, rollover accident reported on this forum that involves a ¾ ton or 1 ton vehicle. The decision to purchase a HD TV usually comes with experience…or those that have the foresight to put the odds in their favor. There are enough factors on the road that we cannot influence. We can make the right choice in a TV/TT combo…

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Old 09-14-2009, 12:32 PM   #69
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If I have to ride shotgun, I'll take a good driver in a 1/2 ton loaded to capacity over an idiot driving any 3/4 or 1 ton truck... loaded or not. I've seen plenty of 3/4 and 1 ton trucks wrecked. I've seen guys tip them by getting a tire onto a soft shoulder. I've seen wreck them by thinking four-wheel drive not only makes them go better in the snow and ice... but stop faster, too.

Here's some economic data for you, Bill. As vehicles have become more safe, the numbers of accidents have actually increased. When people feel safer, they take more risks. This is why one economist wagged, if we wanted people to drive more safely, we'd put a spear on the steering wheel facing the driver's heart (paraphrased). I'd much rather see cautious drivers on the road than some guy who thinks because he bought a one-ton truck, he can haul anything on the planet.

Adequate vehicle + excellent driver > excellent vehicle + adequate driver.
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Old 09-14-2009, 12:40 PM   #70
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Every one of these disasters was with a ½ ton (or lighter) vehicle. Everyone!


Bill
this sway/jacknife happened with a Ford Excursion, which is a 1-Ton chassis...

YouTube - Gumball 2008: Excursion spins out & crashes on I-5
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