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Old 07-11-2019, 08:17 AM   #61
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Here is a little video for ya. Since we are all speculating.

Probability of improper loading of trailer and driver error (tow vehicle driver) is more likely the contributing factors.
my .02

-Dennis
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Old 07-11-2019, 08:24 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Profxd View Post
I agree that when you remove weight off the rear axle you reduce traction. So once a trailer starts to sway and the tires can no longer hold the rig will jackknife. So a rig with less weight on the rear axle will jackknife sooner than one with more weight. The rig with more weight has a better chance to come out of a sway event should it happen or handle higher lateral acceleration before jackknifing. My god what a revelation!
I guess I'm confused. More tongue weight, better. more weight in the rear of trailer, bad. Don't get confused, It has nothing to do with rear axle. 10%-15% of the trailer weight should be forward of the axle(s)....
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Old 07-11-2019, 08:24 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Profxd View Post
I agree that when you remove weight off the rear axle you reduce traction. So once a trailer starts to sway and the tires can no longer hold the rig will jackknife. So a rig with less weight on the rear axle will jackknife sooner than one with more weight. The rig with more weight has a better chance to come out of a sway event should it happen or handle higher lateral acceleration before jackknifing. My god what a revelation!


Yeah, and still none of the dozen or so trailers I have designed and had built have jackknifed. Imagine that.

I was blessed with a natural understanding of how things work, (that's just how it is), the hard part is putting it into words for people who don't have that understanding in a way where they won't make fools of themselves while trying to prove how smart they are.
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Old 07-11-2019, 08:26 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by batman View Post
Here is a little video for ya. Since we are all speculating.



Probability of improper loading of trailer and driver error (tow vehicle driver) is more likely the contributing factors.

my .02



-Dennis


Where did the sway start?

With the trailer perhaps?
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Old 07-11-2019, 08:36 AM   #65
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Stand up and take your chance.

there are in general two kinds of simple mindedness regarding this subject.

1. "Whatever a person might cobble together will work just fine".

and

2. "There is only one way to do it right".

Results matter the most.
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Old 07-11-2019, 03:42 PM   #66
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After reading this post and several more like it, I have reached the conclusion that pulling an Airstream with anything less than a Diesel 250/350/450 2500/3500/4500 (with the 250/2500 being on the ragged edge) is certain death!!!

Furthermore, I have learned that any attempt to tow one without a ________ weight distribution hitch with sway control it will certainly kill you in the first few miles.

I had no idea Airstreams are this dangerous when I ordered one!!!

I actually was naive enough to believe that an Airstream would tow slightly better than the many other type of travel trailers that I have towed over the years. I have decided to cancel my order for the 2020 19cb Caravel. I was even going to tow it with my 2019 Ford Ranger. I would like to thank everyone for saving me from certain death.

(For those that do not get it that was sarcasm)
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Old 07-11-2019, 04:12 PM   #67
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Sranger, that was most fantastic!!!

5 posts in and you've got if figured out. Good sense of humor is helpful when reading any social media and this forum.

Between all the opinions, editorials, my beliefs, I only do it this way, my way or the highway, know it alls, grumpy whatever age folks there are the best intentioned most helpful group of Airstream enthusiast's with lots of skills and super helpful.
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Old 07-11-2019, 04:57 PM   #68
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Sranger, that was most fantastic!!!

5 posts in and you've got if figured out. Good sense of humor is helpful when reading any social media and this forum.

Between all the opinions, editorials, my beliefs, I only do it this way, my way or the highway, know it alls, grumpy whatever age folks there are the best intentioned most helpful group of Airstream enthusiast's with lots of skills and super helpful.
Thx,

I have been on social media forums since the Wildcat BBS days before the internet even existed. You have to have a bit of a thick skin to participate. I also understand that not everyone will appreciate my rather cynical (old grumpy engineer) sense of humor.

For the record, I have read many post here with excellent advise from obviously knowledgable people and I do appreciate their efforts.
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Old 07-11-2019, 05:20 PM   #69
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Us cynical, grumpy, old engineers are still quite capable of contributing to the font of knowledge hereabouts.

A sense of humor is always welcome, since I for one used to be young and crazy, and I am now no longer young.
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Old 07-11-2019, 06:56 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sranger View Post
After reading this post and several more like it, I have reached the conclusion that pulling an Airstream with anything less than a Diesel 250/350/450 2500/3500/4500 (with the 250/2500 being on the ragged edge) is certain death!!!

Furthermore, I have learned that any attempt to tow one without a ________ weight distribution hitch with sway control it will certainly kill you in the first few miles.

I had no idea Airstreams are this dangerous when I ordered one!!!

I actually was naive enough to believe that an Airstream would tow slightly better than the many other type of travel trailers that I have towed over the years. I have decided to cancel my order for the 2020 19cb Caravel. I was even going to tow it with my 2019 Ford Ranger. I would like to thank everyone for saving me from certain death.

(For those that do not get it that was sarcasm)
Sarcasm or not, you have captured the essence of this discussion and everyone like it.
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Old 07-11-2019, 07:23 PM   #71
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I'm towing a 25" Safari with an F-150 Ecoboost and have never had a single instance where I felt out of control. F-250's, 350's and huge diesels are great. Having driven everything from a semi to ZO6's and GT 500 KR Shelby's the biggest lesson I've earned is the vast majority of time it's the mechanic and not the tool that causes the carnage. Hope no one got hurt.
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Old 07-11-2019, 08:03 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimdaher View Post
I'm towing a 25" Safari with an F-150 Ecoboost and have never had a single instance where I felt out of control. F-250's, 350's and huge diesels are great. Having driven everything from a semi to ZO6's and GT 500 KR Shelby's the biggest lesson I've earned is the vast majority of time it's the mechanic and not the tool that causes the carnage. Hope no one got hurt.
I read with interest the first 5 pages of this post. Interestingly enough, nobody commented on what seemingly, by description of the incident, was perhaps the person towing the AS was following the truck too closely? Maybe I misread or misinterpreted the discription of events however, it sounds like a chain of events brought on by following too closely by one and aggressive driving by another. Maybe the AS owner put himself in a poor position? And yes, we just got back from a 4000 + mi 2 weeks at Mt. Rushmore & West Yellowstone, MT going through Bozeman Pass in the rain. BTW, I tow with a F250 diesel and set the cruise control at 68 in the 80mph zones and not at all in the rain pulling our 27FC! I was towing w/a F150 3.5 EB with the max tow pkg. Traded it after a year for the 250. The overall towing "feel" and stability is much more secure and improved w/the 3/4 ton...just sayin'.
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Old 07-11-2019, 08:09 PM   #73
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What exactly happened here?

Was the rig that lost control passing a semi rig at 75 mph down grade? Did a car pass the semi rig and pull in front of it blocking the AS rig from returning to the slow lane after they passed the semi rig? Did the AS rig then jerk back to the fast lane and initiate a sway event that rolled the rig? Or was some other scenario the sequence of events.

Trying to learn from this event. Pat
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Old 07-12-2019, 02:13 AM   #74
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Pat, the news report and LEO provide the main info to go on IMO. No news updates apparently. Doubt if we will ever know all the actual facts . . . just another sway event open to speculation, unlike others where the driver of the Airstream tow vehicle actually came forward to report. Montana was that? Idaho? She was towing a small AS and going 80, as I recall.

Cheers,

Peter

[Post #15 -- click on orange arrow to go there]
Quote:
Originally Posted by OTRA15 View Post
Is this the one?

https://www.abcfoxmontana.com/bozema...5c3c6334f.html
_________________________________________

"Sgt. McLaughlin from the Montana Highway Patrol tweeted that at 4 PM, a car tried to pass a truck and trailer while changing lanes. He writes that they were going about 75 mph when the car tried to squeeze between the truck and trailer and a semi."
_________________________________________

. . .



See here also: https://twitter.com/hashtag/patience...rc=twsrc%5Etfw

In the comments Sgt. McLaughlin says they were going downhill.
. . .
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Old 07-12-2019, 05:17 AM   #75
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This is a great thread. At this point, I realize that I'm currently part of the "Stand up and take your chance." contingent. As good as my local dealer has been when I've needed support, what is clear is that their sales department never asked a single useful question about my TV, or offered any useful advice that could improve my situation.

I have taken as many actions as I can to mitigate risks; My longer-term plan is to get a better TV. I have towed pop up campers for nearly 35 years. Towing a 6-7k# AS is a different animal that requires much more deliberate driving skills and preparations to be successful and safe.

Thanks to all for the useful comments in this thread
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Old 07-12-2019, 06:33 AM   #76
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The #1 safety device is the driver. Period.

When - as in this case apparently - another driver forces you in to an emergency maneuver (which is even better avoided by defensive driving practices...like - when the person started to overtake the trailer combo, the trailer driver could have eased off the gas and given the other driver maximum space to complete the maneuver no matter how ill advised it might have been) the combination of your skills, your knowledge of your rig, your non-panicked thinking, and the adequacy of all components working together as a system will work toward the safest possible outcome.
Totally agree. So many unknowns regarding the wreck originally described in this thread. Many many rears on a motorcycle has made me a pretty defensive driver.
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Old 07-12-2019, 09:07 AM   #77
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Great post and comments. I just got burned with my now prior tow vehicle.. Bought an F150 Supercab with a Class IV hitch, brake controller, trailer hookups and the 2.7 Ecoboost with 400Lbs of torque to tow my 22FB. Looking at the tow guide PDF from Ford it clearly stated it could tow up to 7600Lbs. Dealer stated the same info during purchase. No if ands or buts...

Rewind to three weeks ago when we were getting ready to upgrade to a Globetrotter, we thought we were all set.. and then I started digging. We were right on the edge of cargo limits with the increased tongue weight and the camper being 6200Lbs dry.. As I dug deeper I grew less and less happy… The truck I’d bought didn’t have a tow package. It had all the parts of the tow package but was built with not as thick steel in the frame.. Reading further, buried in the owners manual it clearly states the towing capacity without the tow package is 5000Lbs. Crap.

I could have just said the hell with it and likely would have been fine. It wasn’t just Fords fault, the dealer or me.. we were all at fault. Personally I wasn’t ready to take the liability risk so I trade up to an F150 w/ the 3.5 and the max tow package. Just did our first short trip and clocked in at 2200 miles total and the combo did great..

I completely agree with the folks on here that say you have to research and read ALL the fine print and make %#&^ sure you make the right choices with tow vehicles. I witnessed more messed up looking tow vehicles and camper combos than I cared to count on our first trip out (lots of droopy rear suspensions on old SUVs and small SUVs). And Just like everyone else is saying, be careful out there.. lots and lots of bad drivers doing everything but paying attention.
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Old 07-12-2019, 10:12 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by joekr View Post
Great post and comments. I just got burned with my now prior tow vehicle.. Bought an F150 Supercab with a Class IV hitch, brake controller, trailer hookups and the 2.7 Ecoboost with 400Lbs of torque to tow my 22FB. Looking at the tow guide PDF from Ford it clearly stated it could tow up to 7600Lbs. Dealer stated the same info during purchase. No if ands or buts...

Rewind to three weeks ago when we were getting ready to upgrade to a Globetrotter, we thought we were all set.. and then I started digging. We were right on the edge of cargo limits with the increased tongue weight and the camper being 6200Lbs dry.. As I dug deeper I grew less and less happy… The truck I’d bought didn’t have a tow package. It had all the parts of the tow package but was built with not as thick steel in the frame.. Reading further, buried in the owners manual it clearly states the towing capacity without the tow package is 5000Lbs. Crap.

I could have just said the hell with it and likely would have been fine. It wasn’t just Fords fault, the dealer or me.. we were all at fault. Personally I wasn’t ready to take the liability risk so I trade up to an F150 w/ the 3.5 and the max tow package. Just did our first short trip and clocked in at 2200 miles total and the combo did great..

I completely agree with the folks on here that say you have to research and read ALL the fine print and make %#&^ sure you make the right choices with tow vehicles. I witnessed more messed up looking tow vehicles and camper combos than I cared to count on our first trip out (lots of droopy rear suspensions on old SUVs and small SUVs). And Just like everyone else is saying, be careful out there.. lots and lots of bad drivers doing everything but paying attention.
You bring up a good point. The auto manufacturers like to brag about the best in class _____, but never tell you that you have to get a very specific model to get all of these ratings. Often the MAX Towing/Payload models are the stripped down small cab models with the max towing/hauling packages that virtually no one (or the dealers) order.

For example you can actually buy a F250 that has less payload capacity and about the same towing capacity as a maxed out F150 depending on the packages and features.

As I have said before, as long as you do not exceed about 75% of the tow rating of the tow vehicle you will be fine. However, the hitch weight and the payload capacity are usually the limiting factor.
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Old 07-12-2019, 11:21 AM   #79
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This thread pitched the idea that a small tow vehicle was a risk - take your chance. It misses the point that you must know what you have and not be lulled into a sense of security that a momentary change in circumstance can turn into a very bad day.

The only sure safety factor is your attentive and skillful approach to driving. A high end SUV has advantages, the newer sensors help, a big truck may make you feel safe and your expensive hitch can help optimize your tune. However, rolling too fast for conditions, driving like you are solo, and assuming all is good without testing can lead to a short life in the RV lane.

This accident could have been avoided by appropriate situational awareness and effective defensive driving tactics. It's not enough to sit behind the wheel and roll. You have to be the first line of defense at all times.

Please, be careful out there. Pat
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Old 07-12-2019, 11:27 AM   #80
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“All with small, 1/2 ton or less..”

Is your claim that a 1/2 Ton TV is not suitable nor safe for towing a 25 AS? Would like to see the data related to your claim.
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