Smallest Towing car

[J. Morgan]

From my cursory review of curb weights, it seems that the 300 is two or thee hundred pounds heavier than the old Impala...

I don't think most people are aware that modern cars are pretty much BRICKS..... Heavier even than many cars we used to mock as "boats".

[J. Morgan]

I will say what Cory cant.

Properly set up, pulling a trailer like an Airstream with well functioning brakes, there are MANY vehicles smaller than an F350 that will make capable and safe tow vehicles, Chrysler 300 among them.

If a person is so stuck on needing a F250. " for safety" why do they tow a tongue mount trailer at all when everyone knows that fifth wheels are intrinsically safer?

[jcl]

Originally Posted by rodsterinfl

Does the 300 have a full frame? Probably not. The Impala did. A common car tow package of GM I know in '71 was a recommended 454 in a delta 88 or ninety eight olds my grandfather sold Serviced Chevys in Dayton and referred customers to that config. We had one too. That was when those cars had full load bearing frames .

Not a ladder frame, but a unibody frame. Much stronger in torsion and bending, two characteristics that help improve handling.

I remember putting vehicles like the 1971 Impala or 98 up on a single post hoist in the shop. We unlatched all the doors half way so that when we lifted it the doors didn't stretch out of adjustment as the frame sagged. Not a problem with a modern unibody of the same weight and length.

[cory_can]

Originally Posted by J. Morgan

I will say what Cory cant.

Properly set up, pulling a trailer like an Airstream with well functioning brakes, there are MANY vehicles smaller than an F350 that will make capable and safe tow vehicles, Chrysler 300 among them.

If a person is so stuck on needing a F250. " for safety" why do they tow a tongue mount trailer at all when everyone knows that fifth wheels are intrinsically safer?

To be honest, i could have probably said something similar, perhaps not so well, but essentially the same . IMO, this has been said probably 25 times in this thread from various people in various ways.....the problem is that it doesn't sink in/not believed/dismissed/ignored etc.

What I was GOING to say was much different

[dkottum]

And so it goes. Give experience, examples, reasoning how a towing vehicle may be evaluated on specific qualities rather than bigness and it will be denied, foolishly ridiculed, and threatened with unsubstantiated legalities and lawsuits.

But there are things to learn for those who might find it useful.

[J. Morgan]

Originally Posted by cory_can

To be honest, i could have probably said something similar..........

.....What I was GOING to say was much different

I started out to be more condescending, but by the time I got done typing I found That I made my point without doing so....

There is nothing mystic about making a stable tow rig, it is just a matter of insuring a few fundamentals. These fundamentals can be addressed in any number of different ways when a thinking person applies knowledge, and this knowledge is proven and fine tuned in experience and application.

Usually,,,, in a case like this, the folks saying something that is clearly being done "cant be done", is because of one of three reasons;

A. - Said by people who have never tried.

B. - Tried, but not tried properly.

C. - They see it is being done but they just don't like it.

In this case I think "A" and "C" are the main driver of comments on this thread.

[MrUKToad]

Originally Posted by cory_can

Wayne/Steve/Doug/others, I must commend you all for your patience, endurance and professionalism with these type of threads. You all have much better tolerances than I have

I've written and deleted my reply a few times and decided against posting my original thought ...I figured I should hang around a little longer without getting tossed by a moderator

My very first post to this thread stands...I wish these topics would just get deleted because they go in circles for days and the same people (regardless of stance) post the same information/opinions/facts/rumours/speculation/experiences/expertise etc etc etc.

Perhaps going forward if the thread is asking options on traditionally smaller tow setups people that have experience can share what has worked. Those that don't have first hand experience with a properly tuned small setup (and just have opinions) can stop rehashing "gospel" and fear tactic and bite your tongues. On the other hand, if the OP is asking for advice on large trucks to tow an AS, "we" won't try to persuade them otherwise....not that I've see any of that, but I suppose it's fair to add in that stipulation

Agree to disagree and call a "truce" of sorts.

Or....let these threads get continually repeated every few weeks and we can all practice our CTRL-C, CTRL-V

One of the reasons that I persist in these small TV arguments is that I don't like to see so many "you can't tow that with that", claims go unanswered, especially as they're always unsubstantiated. I understand the physics and I know it works, so why wouldn't I want to counter the naysayers?

I don't mind re-hashing the arguments, either; as Doug has said, you can still learn from them. Believe me, friends, I'm open to productive discussion and will happily be persuaded by a good, evidence based debate. The trouble is, I've yet to see any real evidence that counters the small TV argument.

To misquote dear old Maggie Thatcher (that's irony by the way) "You tow big if you want to, this Airstreamer's not for turning"

[Airrogant]

Originally Posted by J. Morgan

By the way, why did you drag Jesus into this thread?

I was trying to bore a hole deep into the doubting minds of the terminally overloaded. I thought it might get their attention, and give them pause to really listen.

Nevertheless it is probably in poor taste. I sincerely apologize if my crude attempt at humor offended anyone.

[Airrogant]

Originally Posted by MrUKToad

However, I'd suggest that a published article in a mainstream RV journal is considerably more evidence of the Chrysler's suitability to tow an Airstream than you have offered to support your statement that it isn't.

That "article" isn't really an article. That is an advertisement.

Wasn't someone just saying something about the car overheating? I wonder why that wasn't included in the advertisement. So the 300 really is a good car for towing UNLESS the trailer makes the engine overheat? Hensley's are great to use with undersized TVs UNLESS they break the shank. I bet a little digging might reveal a string of tidbits all leading to the same conclusion.

It might be beneficial if we established a set of measurable variables that we could use to determine the suitability of a vehicle to tow an Airstream. Surely there must be more than one man in the world capable of wielding the magical divining rod of AS towing.

I am very interested in these modded vehicles. Does anyone who owns one want to share some "facts" about their ride? What specifically was altered on your TV? What is your modded hitch's newly-rated tongue weight? What is it's new GVWR? How about it's tow rating and it's payload capacity? Once we've established some baseline data, we can talk about performance on the road. What is you normal towing speed? What is a fast towing speed for your setup? What type of acceleration is your setup capable of? At what speeds? How fast can you go up a X% grade. How long can you go down a steep grade before blowing the engine or burning out the brakes? How about other braking tests, etc. If I could see some DATA I might pay more credence to the seat-of-the-pants reporting that I usually read about. Who's willing to get dirty and dig into some FACTS?

[Andrew T]

I am sorry you think the article I wrote on the 3.6 litre 8 speed 300 is an advertisement but I think I can offer an explanation as to why you might think that way. I have been writing articles in RV Lifestyle for 29 years and my first responsibility is to those that subscribe to the magazine many of whom have subscribed for many years. It would be pretty boring reading if every article reviewed every towing principal in each issue and it would also fill the entire issue. Over the years we have discussed in detail all the questions you are concerned about.

The Airstream in the article specifically was a 30' International with full window awnings, fully loaded for travel full water tank etc. A family of 4 plus 4 bikes etc. Every cabinet was used. Loaded like this the 300 was within 100 pounds of its GAWR. our 2007 Charger tows much heavier trailers on a regular basis far more miles than most tow vehicles and has had no GVWR related issues.

All our vehicle tests are done with vehicles we have bought and use ourselves or that a customer has allowed us to use. I never have any obligation to the vehicle manufacturer to write something nice because they lent me the vehicle to use or flew me to some exotic destination to try it.

The identical engine and transmission is rated to tow 7400 pounds in a 1500 pick up which consumes much more of its power than the 300 does.

The Brakes on the 300 have more reserve capacity than the brakes on a 3/4 ton pick up, I have been over most of the major mountain passes in North America and I would not hesitate to take the 300 over any of them.

It is true that they did have some head casting problems with 3.6 Litres but Chrysler has extended the warranty for everyone with those engines. I do tell people from the US southwest that we have not tested the 3.6 in the summer heat there as of yet and that they may need a larger radiator but I doubt it. There is absolutely no heating anywhere in the south east but that is less challenging.

Having said all this for most people they are never going to understand until they get their hands on the wheel with an Airstream on the back. Sometime take a trip to Niagara Falls and on your way by stop in and test drive the 300. If you are driving an F150 you will find it to be dramatically more stable and direct handling.

Andrew T

[J. Morgan]

It was in poor taste, and an insult even to some who may even be on "your side".

I suppose you don't think there is enough controversy on this thread so you want to have a religious debate as well??

[J. Morgan]

Airogant has never tried one of these rigs, but he is certain it will not work..... Even though there are several people on this forum who offer testimony that it will....

Why do these people lie so much?

By the way, do you tow your 16' trailer with an F450?

[aquinob]

I just find it interesting that you are all going on about towing with a Chrysler 300 which from what I can gather online, has a tow rating of 1000 lbs (not even the 3500 of an Odyssey). Am I missing something here, is there a model that is significantly better rated?

And it has been mentioned numerous times that with trailer brakes doing most of the work, the tow vehicle brakes aren't critical to the equation. But what happens when the trailer brakes fail or is that never a consideration? The connector comes loose or you have a bad connection somewhere? Happened to me a month or so back, I was going fairly slow and the connection into the trailer had pulled out a bit, so I pulled over and pushed it back in.

I realize I'm not going to change anybodies mind here, but what ever happened to erring on the side of caution, especially when you are traveling down the road with an 8-10,000 lb combined weight rig? I guess it's assumed that the engineers who design and build these vehicles don't know their trade or that some aftermarket hitch installer knows better?

[Larry C]

Originally Posted by J. Morgan

I started out to be more condescending, but by the time I got done typing I found That I made my point without doing so....

There is nothing mystic about making a stable tow rig, it is just a matter of insuring a few fundamentals. These fundamentals can be addressed in any number of different ways when a thinking person applies knowledge, and this knowledge is proven and fine tuned in experience and application.

Usually,,,, in a case like this, the folks saying something that is clearly being done "cant be done", is because of one of three reasons;

A. - Said by people who have never tried.

B. - Tried, but not tried properly.

C. - They see it is being done but they just don't like it.

In this case I think "A" and "C" are the main driver of comments on this thread.

Well stated!
Items "A", and "C" are a very accurate observation!

Larry

[Airrogant]

Originally Posted by J. Morgan

It was in poor taste, and an insult even to some who may even be on "your side".

It's also in poor taste to rag on someone after they've already apologized. But I'll do what Jesus would have done - I'll forgive you. Perhaps you'll do the same for me?

[J. Morgan]

I am not mad at all, I don't see cause for me to have to forgive you because I don't think you did anything "wrong", we are just talking. Talking is good.

Pointing out remarks made in poor taste is not the same as being "hurt" or even offended.

[Airrogant]

Originally Posted by J. Morgan

Airogant has never tried one of these rigs, but he is certain it will not work..... Even though there are several people on this forum who offer testimony that it will....

Why do these people lie so much?

By the way, do you tow your 16' trailer with an F450?

No I have not tried one of these rigs. I am absolutely certain that it will "work." I'm also absolutely certain that the average Joe shouldn't try it. Why don't the grossly underweight understand the meaning of the words "should," and "shouldn't?"

I'm not sure who you are calling a liar, but it sure as hell better not be me. Resorting to name calling like you are doing is what gets these threads closed down before any meaningful dialogue can finally be established.

No I do not tow my trailer with an F450.

[J. Morgan]

I am not calling you a liar , not even.

I was talking about those people who claim these smaller tow vehicles are safe,,,,, (in satire).....

Relax.

Some say they are proven safe, you say absolutely not, so obviously they must be lying.... (Do you hear me now?)

[BoldAdventure]

Originally Posted by Andrew T

The identical engine and transmission is rated to tow 7400 pounds in a 1500 pick up which consumes much more of its power than the 300 does.

Some problems with this I'm trying to understand. The Dodge Ram 1500 R/T has a lower towing at 5000lbs. There is a lengthy discussion on the ramforums right now about why this might be. Some folks think it's the wheels, others a combo of other things.

I don't think engine/transmission combo's can be a deciding factor. Otherwise an Corvette would make a nice tow vehicle. Or my Pontiac G8 GXP with 400hp and 425ft/lb of toque.

Although the GXP is about the same size as the 300 but an overall nicer car, and probably out handles that boat.

I can only speak to what I know, but I know that the 6.2L in my G8 has different heads and cam than the 6.2L in the Silverado, even though they are sort of the same combo.

The torque curve is completely different in the truck.

But it's semantics.

Not saying it's not do-able.

[Road Ruler]

Originally Posted by BoldAdventure

I don't think engine/transmission combo's can be a deciding factor. Otherwise an Corvette would make a nice tow vehicle.

Did you see post #296..... http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...105356-22.html