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Old 08-15-2014, 05:37 PM   #113
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The 28 Flying Cloud tongue weight is 976 pounds and the the 28 International tongue weight is 950 pounds per the 2014 Catalog. That is without propane in the tanks or any options installed. It just came off the production line, crossed 500 feet of space and entered the right of seven garage doors in the building behind manufacturing to access the scales. There is nothing else inside the trailer at that point. So filling the two 30 pound propane capacity gas tanks puts the tongue weight over the 1,000 pound rating.

When we picked up our 2013 25FB International Serenity with a literature tongue weight of 833 pounds, it had the usual optional factory package (dealer profit) plus factory approved but dealer installed ZipDee street and rear awnings and a similar to factory single 150 watt solar cell on the roof. The dealer had put a power cord and adapter under the front bed. The tongue weight exceeded 1,000 pounds.

After mounting the Hensley hitch head the tongue weight was 1,150 pounds. Loaded for camping it was nearly 1,200 pounds. None of the dealers had negative comments about that tongue weight.

My experience with trailers is a minimum of 10% to 15% of the GVW as tongue weight works the best.

Thus I have no problems with what I am currently doing with our Classic and I do not have a stiff suspension tow vehicle (all air bag suspension) and am using the ProPride recommended tow bar arms for this trailer. The factory recommended tires and wheels (16" Michelins and SenDel wheels) carry 80 psi.

YMMV
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Old 08-15-2014, 06:57 PM   #114
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A lot more tongue weight than I thought.
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Old 08-15-2014, 08:45 PM   #115
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Actually the factory hitch weight given includes full propane.
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Old 08-15-2014, 09:59 PM   #116
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I'm wondering how the accuracy of the Sherline scale is affected by the trailer being exactly level. My 2014 International 23D is parked on a dead level pad and the trailer is level to it.

I marked the electric jack shaft to indicate level. I lower the trailer to that mark. The Sherline reads 440+-. I lower it a bit more (3/8 inch +-) until the scale bottoms out and it reads 730+-.

The published tongue weight is 720. I'm assuming that is with full water tank and maxed out cargo weight. I had the tank at 1/4, propane tanks full and typical camping cargo. The cargo and water is approximately half of max allowable.

440+- pounds sounds reasonable. 730+- is surprising. By the way both results were repeatable at their given jack heights.

Which result should I believe?
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Old 08-16-2014, 07:10 PM   #117
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That sounds about right. I thought the common thread was that Airstreams weights were under what everyone experienced in reality.
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Old 09-06-2014, 10:48 AM   #118
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Preliminary weighing

So on a whim we decided to run up to the CAT scales 40 minutes from us to get some readings. We are camping today so we had a FULLY loaded trailer including full propane tanks, fresh water tanks, full gas tank..... even the cast iron lodge cookware was in the trailer. Our 2013 Toyota Tundra 4 X 4 double cab was fully loaded with generator, chairs, gear etc. Unfortunately we did not read the forums first so we did not get a critical weight which was the weighing of the TT and TV with the weight distribution bars off. If I read the airforums correctly, that means I am unable to get an accurate tongue weight. To also add confusion to it all, the Magenta hair colored teenager running the scales may or may have not added the passenger on the first or second weighing. She instructed us we had to push the button, but I gently informed her that it was 10 feet above our heads and we were unable to easily push it. By the time I walked back to my husband in the truck I could not easily discern if she had weighed me in it or not!! I think she may have weighed me with the travel trailer hooked up but not just the tow vehicle! I weigh 150 pounds. Besides getting the actual weight of our 1960 Tradewind trailer, did we get any other useful information? The whole process was kind of hysterical, because the teenager initially told us the trailer was too small to weigh!! At this point there were trucks behind us! We will be better prepared next time! Sorry last image is upside down...I don't know how to fix it!
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Old 09-06-2014, 06:41 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2vets View Post
---Unfortunately we did not read the forums first so we did not get a critical weight which was the weighing of the TT and TV with the weight distribution bars off. If I read the airforums correctly, that means I am unable to get an accurate tongue weight.---
The data you obtained can be used to get an estimate of tongue weight if one assumes some TV/TT dimensions.
Assuming TV ball overhang =60" and ball to midpoint between TT axles = 220",
and assuming both sets of scales data either included or excluded the weight of the passenger,
the tongue weight is estimated to be 636# with 136# being transferred to the TT's axles.

The indicated TT weight is 10360-6220 = 4140#, giving an indicated TW% of 636/4140 = 15.4%.

Quote:
---I think she may have weighed me with the travel trailer hooked up but not just the tow vehicle! I weigh 150 pounds.---
IMO, it is not likely you were excluded from the TV-only weights.
If the recorded TV-only weights were 150# too low, the "adjusted" weight would indicate a tongue weight of only 386#. That seems too low for your TT.

Ron
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Old 09-06-2014, 09:16 PM   #120
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Ron,
Would you write out the formula you used to make the calculation of the weight transferred to the TT axles, based on the dimensions you provided.
And, please elaborate on how that calculated weight might vary if the overhang was longer or shorter by just an inch or two. (I'm thinking I might drill a second hole in my hitch shank to move the ball closer to the TV, and wondering how much effect it would have)
Thanks!
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Old 09-07-2014, 10:05 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by A W Warn View Post
Ron,
Would you write out the formula you used to make the calculation of the weight transferred to the TT axles, based on the dimensions you provided.
And, please elaborate on how that calculated weight might vary if the overhang was longer or shorter by just an inch or two. (I'm thinking I might drill a second hole in my hitch shank to move the ball closer to the TV, and wondering how much effect it would have)
Thanks!
Alan, if your objective is to restore a certain percentage of load to the TV's front axle, the effect of ball overhang can be determined via the following.

For:
a = TV wheelbase
b = TV ball overhang
c = distance from ball to midpoint between TT's axles
d = effective length of WD bars
TW = TT tongue weight
BARLOAD = upward force exerted on a single WD bar

Then:
load removed from front axle = TW x b / a

load restored by WDH = (2 x BARLOAD x d / c) x {(b+c) / a}

Making the load restored equal to load removed (100% FALR) gives:

BARLOAD/TW = (b / d) x {c / (b+c)} / 2 or

BARLOAD/TW = c / (2 x d) x b / (b+c)

If all parameters other than "b" remain constant, then the effect of ball overhang is given by the ratio

r = b / (b+c)

Assuming a value of 220" for "c" and 60" for the initial value of "b" gives a ratio of 0.2143.
Decreasing "b" to 59" gives a ratio of 0.2115.
For this example, a 1.7% decrease in ball overhang would result in a 1.3% decrease in required bar force.

If I didn't answer the question you were asking, let me know.

Ron
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Old 09-07-2014, 11:33 AM   #122
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Ron,
My objective was to understand your calculation. You answered my question.
I now see that you assumed a restored front axle load using WD, and applied a ratio based on that assumption.
You also made me re-think moving my hitch forward, that most likely it would not be worth the effort. Now I need to measure my trailer and crunch the numbers to see for myself. (or, maybe I should go camping instead ;-)
Thank you!
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Old 09-07-2014, 12:17 PM   #123
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Weights---------------1-WD On--2- WD Off--3- TV Only
TV Front Axle-----------3260-------2940-------3480
TV Rear Axle------------3740-------4200-------2800
TT------------------------5200-------5080-----------0
TV GVW-----------------7000-------7140-------6280
GCW-------------------12200------12220-------6280

NOTES:
WD Off test and TV Only test WD bars were not included
TV GVWR 7200#
TV Max Tow 8600#
TT GVWR 6300#

Tongue--------------------720--------860-----------0
TT GWV------------------5920-------5940-----------0

Hope this formats as readable.

This is old data. I need to transfer about another 150-200# to the front to get the setup optimized. Conditions for this weigh were driver, full TV fuel, full water, empty grey and black, 45# of propane, not much else in the TT.
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Old 09-07-2014, 02:59 PM   #124
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Thank you Ron! The TV ball overhang is 60 inches. However the distance between the ball and the TT axles was 180 inches not 220 inches, the reason being it is a single axle trailer and an old one at that!! How does this change my numbers....?
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Old 09-07-2014, 07:07 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2vets View Post
---The TV ball overhang is 60 inches. However the distance between the ball and the TT axles was 180 inches not 220 inches, the reason being it is a single axle trailer and an old one at that!! How does this change my numbers....?
The actual ball to axle distance of 180" gives an indicated TW of 666# with 166# being transferred to the TT's axle.

Ron
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Old 09-12-2014, 04:43 PM   #126
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We are camped with a CAT scale nearby, so I have an opportunity to weigh our rig for the first time. In reviewing various posts and websites, I am a little confused. Here is what I have planned:

1. Pull fully loaded TV and Trailer on scale with steering, drive and TT axles on pads 1,2 and 3. Take weights.

2 Disconnect WD bars but leave attached to hitch (I have Equalizer system). Take second measurement.

3. Pull off scale, disconnect TT. Drive TV back on scale with WD bars attached to hitch. Measure steering and drive axles.

Is this correct and is there anything I've missed? I have seen a couple of spreadsheets for calculations. Any recommendation?

Thanks for your comments.



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