Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 07-04-2014, 09:05 PM   #43
Rivet Master
 
dznf0g's Avatar

 
2007 30' Classic
Oswego , Illinois
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,409
Images: 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkottum View Post
Rich, thanks for the excellent explanations. Always a confusing question.

For the o.p. (and the rest of us) to get any meaningful data, we need a standard for weighing. That is, with or without hitch head and/or stinger, as well as setting the scale at the same position on the tongue. Some place the scale under the tongue jack, some under the ball coupler, with will result in different weight readings on the same trailer. The trailer must also be level.
Thanks, Doug...that's sorta what I was getting at..and was getting dangerously close to hijacking, but you are right.

Somewhere around here...and maybe on one of my spreadsheets there is a math formula for actual TW when using the Shurline under the jack.

TW, by definition is the weight exerted on the ball at the coupler. Shurline comes with an adapter to stick it up into the coupler, but then your using a bunch of blocks to get the scale at the correct height.

Trailer must be dead level.
__________________

__________________
-Rich-

"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." - Red Green
dznf0g is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2014, 09:08 PM   #44
Rivet Master
 
dznf0g's Avatar

 
2007 30' Classic
Oswego , Illinois
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,409
Images: 5
BTW, this is good to be visiting again. Reminds me that I need a new set of scale tickets. I haven't weighed my wagon for 2 years and there have been changes. Otherwise I would have posted my numbers already.
__________________

__________________
-Rich-

"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." - Red Green
dznf0g is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2014, 09:14 PM   #45
Rivet Master
 
dznf0g's Avatar

 
2007 30' Classic
Oswego , Illinois
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,409
Images: 5
Found it. This is specific to my HAHA somewhat, but the A = (BY)/X formula in the middle is the one to compensate for weighing at the jack post.

Hitch weight Calculation:
Hensley total: 166.5#
Hensley head: 99#
Remainder: 67.5# (Use 23# as TV load and 45# as tongue weight)

A = (BY)/X where:
A = calculated weight at ball
B = observed weight at jack
Y=Axle to jack in feet (18’)
X=Axle to ball in feet (18.75’)

Final TW = calculated TW – 99 - 23
__________________
-Rich-

"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." - Red Green
dznf0g is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2014, 06:04 AM   #46
Rivet Master
 
switz's Avatar

 
2014 31' Classic
2015 23' International
2013 25' FB International
Apache Junction , Arizona
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,799
Images: 8
Since I did not remove the Hensley head nor do I remove the ProPride head from the trailer "A" frame, that weight is part of the tongue weight that the trailer is supporting when unhitched. It is part of the weight mass that is fixed and that number is subtracted from the trailer GVW to determine what additional payload may be placed inside the trailer.

When I retract the jack stand, the Hensley/ProPride hitch head weight is part of the weight mass being attached to the truck. The stinger weight weight when attached to the truck is also part of the total weight the hitch receiver is supporting.

The tongue weight of the Classic is now 1,345 pounds with the ProPride attached. So allowing for my tongue weight of 1,345 plus , for convenience, 55 pounds in stinger weight, we have added 1,400 pounds to the truck receiver before messing with the weight distribution levers.

So when I purchased the 2012 Dodge, the factory receiver was rated 1,200 pounds. Our first Airstream loaded for camping had 1,175 pounds tongue weight without the stinger. Thus, the factory receiver would be over it's stated weight limit while stationary with the trailer attached and no cranking of the weight distribution mechanism.

Going down the road with the vertical forces associated with the oscillations from going over bumps and road undulations, the factory hitch could easily fatigue at the welds, and that was reported happening. Thus I cut off the factory receiver and retro fitted a Curt hitch receiver rated 2,550 pounds so that is not an issue.

The weight distribution system does not lessen the forces applied to the hitch receiver, but in most instances make them worse as the concept is applying leverage to the truck receiver to try and rotate the front of the truck downwards to transfer some weight force to the front wheels.

Thus a tow vehicle receiver that is supporting close to or at the weight as described above before weight distribution forces are applied, may be over stressed when weight distribution is cranked in due to leverage.

One may be very wise to ascertain the rating of their tow vehicle hitch both static and with weight distribution forces applied. On the heavier trailers, a Class V may be required to prevent metal fatigue and a hitch receiver failure in the future due to being either overloaded or over stressed or both.
__________________
WBCCI Life Member 5123, AIR 70341, 4CU, WD9EMC

TV - 2012 Dodge 2500 4x4 Cummins HO, automatic, Centramatics, Kelderman level ride airbag suspension, bed shell

2014 31' Classic model 30 twin beds, 50 amp service, 900 watt solar system, Centramatics, Dill TPMS, disc brakes, 16" tires & wheels
switz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2014, 07:08 AM   #47
Rivet Master
 
dznf0g's Avatar

 
2007 30' Classic
Oswego , Illinois
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,409
Images: 5
But tongue weight is about more than simply a payload allowance and position. It is an allowance of the weight placed at the coupler pocket which when in dynamic motion allows for only certain stresses and flexing to occur in the front of the frame and A-frame before fatigue and cracking may start. (Remember the conversation concerning rivet popping due to too much spring bar and TW?) TW is also, of course about proper proportion of weight distribution and sway.

But, in the dynamic frame capability situation, the HAHA weight hanging out front has no effect on the a-frame whatsoever. The tongue is resting on the ball as it would with any other hitch.

Your truck/receiver statements are correct, IMO. This all depends on whether you are looking for a TW number to shop/balance a truck spec. (which is really receiver weight) or you are trying to balance/not overload the AS tongue. (TW). The two are not the same calculation nor scale reading.
__________________
-Rich-

"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." - Red Green
dznf0g is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2014, 07:51 AM   #48
Rivet Master
 
switz's Avatar

 
2014 31' Classic
2015 23' International
2013 25' FB International
Apache Junction , Arizona
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,799
Images: 8
The weight of either the Hensley or the ProPride hitch head must be taken into consideration as the hitch head is being supported by the tow vehicle receiver when connected and, after all, either hitch head is bolted to the trailer. It is part and parcel to the empty weight of the trailer unless it is physically removed from the trailer.

The attachment of the spring arms to the trailer frame does induce stress to the frame, in particular to the welded on trailer ball socket which is being asked to be the fulcrum of the teeter toter attempting to move downward force vectors to a different location on the tow vehicle.
__________________
WBCCI Life Member 5123, AIR 70341, 4CU, WD9EMC

TV - 2012 Dodge 2500 4x4 Cummins HO, automatic, Centramatics, Kelderman level ride airbag suspension, bed shell

2014 31' Classic model 30 twin beds, 50 amp service, 900 watt solar system, Centramatics, Dill TPMS, disc brakes, 16" tires & wheels
switz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2014, 08:12 AM   #49
Rivet Master
 
dznf0g's Avatar

 
2007 30' Classic
Oswego , Illinois
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,409
Images: 5
I disagree.
__________________
-Rich-

"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." - Red Green
dznf0g is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2014, 08:21 AM   #50
Rivet Master
 
switz's Avatar

 
2014 31' Classic
2015 23' International
2013 25' FB International
Apache Junction , Arizona
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,799
Images: 8
Okay.
__________________
WBCCI Life Member 5123, AIR 70341, 4CU, WD9EMC

TV - 2012 Dodge 2500 4x4 Cummins HO, automatic, Centramatics, Kelderman level ride airbag suspension, bed shell

2014 31' Classic model 30 twin beds, 50 amp service, 900 watt solar system, Centramatics, Dill TPMS, disc brakes, 16" tires & wheels
switz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2014, 09:31 AM   #51
Full Time Adventurer
 
BoldAdventure's Avatar
 
2007 27' International CCD FB
Nomadic , USA
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,743
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghaynes755 View Post
2015 FC 25 Rear Bedroom, Trailer weight 6440 and tongue 1040. 2015 Sierra 2500 Duramax and ProPride.
Is that tongue weight with the Proride attached? I've heard it adds an extra 100lbs.
__________________
Family of 4 living, working & exploring the USA in our Airstream.
OUR BLOG | FACEBOOK | INSTAGRAM
BoldAdventure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2014, 10:46 AM   #52
Rivet Master
 
A W Warn's Avatar
 
2000 25' Safari
1999 34' Excella
Davidson County, NC , Highlands County, FL
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,571
confusing terms and descriptions is the problem - my $.02 worth

"Load on the hitch receiver" of the tow vehicle (incorrectly called tongue weight) must be calculated by adding together the trailer tongue weight and weight of hitching apparatus.

"Tongue weight" is the weight of the trailer only, measured where the trailer tongue sets on the hitch ball. It does not include the hitch or sway control, regardless of the type.

The weight of the hitch stinger, hitch ball, sway control, and/or any other hitching apparatus is not tongue weight. The exception would be any portion of this that is permanently affixed to the trailer. Examples of this would be the pivot ball for a friction type sway control or the snap up brackets for weight distribution that are fixed to the trailer.
__________________
Alan
2014 Silverado 1500 Crew Cab 5.3L maximum trailering package (yes, I'm towing the 34')
A W Warn is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2014, 04:39 PM   #53
Rivet Master
 
2016 30' Classic
Erie , Colorado
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,245
Images: 1
Alan paraphrasing what you wrote. If I were to put the PP stinger in the truck receiver, attach the ProPride head to it (not attached to the trailer) so that I have the stinger, head and bars all attached to the truck the only change to the trailer tongue weight is the additional weight of the jacks which might be 30-40 lbs?

Then I back the truck up to the trailer and let the trailer connect to the PP ball. Has the tongue weight changed? No.

Hook up the PP in it's normal condition. Unhitch from the truck. Weight on the tongue (or under the power jack stand) will be increased by the weight of the PP head. But as soon as it is hooked back up to the stinger the trailer tongue is sitting on the a hitch ball just like it started when there was no PP included.

Once you start dialing in the WD settings some of this obviously change and I'm not sure all of those mechanics.

So I guess my question is, as Alan pointed out, tongue weight is without all the doodads that can be removed. The yoke and the jacks might be included since they stay in place. Am I on the right track?
__________________
Gary
2015 Classic
2015 GMC Sierra 2500HD Duramax
ProPride
NVPN
ghaynes755 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2014, 05:03 PM   #54
Rivet Master
 
dznf0g's Avatar

 
2007 30' Classic
Oswego , Illinois
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,409
Images: 5
Yes, that's what I have been saying all along. I am curious where Alan found those definitions. Or are they your own?
__________________
-Rich-

"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." - Red Green
dznf0g is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2014, 06:04 PM   #55
Rivet Master
 
rodsterinfl's Avatar

 
2006 25' Safari
Fort Myers , Florida
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,432
Images: 8
Just read this whole thread. Why do you want to separate the weight of the hitch from the tongue weight? Do you need the actual tongue weight of the trailer? Since it all counts "against" the payload, I guess I do not see why it matters. Are you trying to look at hitch capacity?

What AW Warn wrote is a textbook definition of both; however, when it comes to the part where we use tongue weight as a calculation, the classic example in the RV Handbook is a hitch type that is attached to the truck. Before weighing at the CAT scale the owner is to slide in the receiver and any hitch parts adding it to the truck payload weight. Then add the trailer's weighed tongue weight to that and subtract from payload capacity. What is different here is that the PP is mostly connected to the trailer so, it WOULD be added to the tongue weight unless you wanted to disassemble it all and put it in the back of the truck and then weigh the truck. I am leaving to go get the CAT scale paperwork with/without propride.
__________________
WBCCI 8653/AIR 60240
2017 Ford F-150 3.5 Ecobeast Gen 2 3.55 Platinum
rodsterinfl is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2014, 06:09 PM   #56
Rivet Idiot
 
AirHeadsRus's Avatar
 
1999 34' Excella
Currently Looking...
Currently Looking...
On The Lake , Georgia
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodsterinfl View Post
Just read this whole thread. Why do you want to separate the weight of the hitch from the tongue weight? Do you need the actual tongue weight of the trailer? Since it all counts "against" the payload, I guess I do not see why it matters. Are you trying to look at hitch capacity?
I am with you on the what does it matter
__________________

__________________
AirHeadsRus is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
5.7 Tundra Real World MPG? OldVwHunters Tow Vehicles 117 07-16-2015 10:18 AM
Real World MPG -- Avalanche & Bambi grizzy On The Road... 13 06-15-2011 10:06 AM
Share your favorite roadfood spots 63air On The Road... 56 05-09-2008 11:23 AM
Real Answers for Real A/C questions nbk3ad2 Furnaces, Heaters, Fireplaces & Air Conditioning 10 02-06-2007 09:51 AM
First real trip; real dumb mistake... myoung On The Road... 49 03-29-2006 08:37 PM


Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:25 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.