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dznf0g · 07-04-2014, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveSueMac

Ok, that's starting to make sense a bit - at least, I think I can envision what you're saying. In that "exploded" view, that absolutely makes sense. But when I "re-bolt" the unit to the a-frame in my head, I don't see how those components still apply only to the receiver and aren't added to the tongue. I see for sure that they are always included in the weight on the receiver - just not seeing how they don't ALSO contribute to the weight on the tongue.

Thanks for being patient - I really wish I was getting this!

In essence the stinger and the head/box are resting on the receiver and the tongue coupler is resting on the head/box (ball). Tongue weight = the weight resting on the ball.

dkottum · 07-04-2014, 07:59 PM

Rich, thanks for the excellent explanations. Always a confusing question.

For the o.p. (and the rest of us) to get any meaningful data, we need a standard for weighing. That is, with or without hitch head and/or stinger, as well as setting the scale at the same position on the tongue. Some place the scale under the tongue jack, some under the ball coupler, with will result in different weight readings on the same trailer. The trailer must also be level.

dznf0g · 07-04-2014, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkottum

Rich, thanks for the excellent explanations. Always a confusing question.

For the o.p. (and the rest of us) to get any meaningful data, we need a standard for weighing. That is, with or without hitch head and/or stinger, as well as setting the scale at the same position on the tongue. Some place the scale under the tongue jack, some under the ball coupler, with will result in different weight readings on the same trailer. The trailer must also be level.

Thanks, Doug...that's sorta what I was getting at..and was getting dangerously close to hijacking, but you are right.

Somewhere around here...and maybe on one of my spreadsheets there is a math formula for actual TW when using the Shurline under the jack.

TW, by definition is the weight exerted on the ball at the coupler. Shurline comes with an adapter to stick it up into the coupler, but then your using a bunch of blocks to get the scale at the correct height.

Trailer must be dead level.

dznf0g · 07-04-2014, 08:08 PM

BTW, this is good to be visiting again. Reminds me that I need a new set of scale tickets. I haven't weighed my wagon for 2 years and there have been changes. Otherwise I would have posted my numbers already.

dznf0g · 07-04-2014, 08:14 PM

Found it. This is specific to my HAHA somewhat, but the A = (BY)/X formula in the middle is the one to compensate for weighing at the jack post.

Hitch weight Calculation:
Hensley total: 166.5#
Hensley head: 99#
Remainder: 67.5# (Use 23# as TV load and 45# as tongue weight)

A = (BY)/X where:
A = calculated weight at ball
B = observed weight at jack
Y=Axle to jack in feet (18’)
X=Axle to ball in feet (18.75’)

Final TW = calculated TW – 99 - 23

switz · 07-05-2014, 05:04 AM

Since I did not remove the Hensley head nor do I remove the ProPride head from the trailer "A" frame, that weight is part of the tongue weight that the trailer is supporting when unhitched. It is part of the weight mass that is fixed and that number is subtracted from the trailer GVW to determine what additional payload may be placed inside the trailer.

When I retract the jack stand, the Hensley/ProPride hitch head weight is part of the weight mass being attached to the truck. The stinger weight weight when attached to the truck is also part of the total weight the hitch receiver is supporting.

The tongue weight of the Classic is now 1,345 pounds with the ProPride attached. So allowing for my tongue weight of 1,345 plus , for convenience, 55 pounds in stinger weight, we have added 1,400 pounds to the truck receiver before messing with the weight distribution levers.

So when I purchased the 2012 Dodge, the factory receiver was rated 1,200 pounds. Our first Airstream loaded for camping had 1,175 pounds tongue weight without the stinger. Thus, the factory receiver would be over it's stated weight limit while stationary with the trailer attached and no cranking of the weight distribution mechanism.

Going down the road with the vertical forces associated with the oscillations from going over bumps and road undulations, the factory hitch could easily fatigue at the welds, and that was reported happening. Thus I cut off the factory receiver and retro fitted a Curt hitch receiver rated 2,550 pounds so that is not an issue.

The weight distribution system does not lessen the forces applied to the hitch receiver, but in most instances make them worse as the concept is applying leverage to the truck receiver to try and rotate the front of the truck downwards to transfer some weight force to the front wheels.

Thus a tow vehicle receiver that is supporting close to or at the weight as described above before weight distribution forces are applied, may be over stressed when weight distribution is cranked in due to leverage.

One may be very wise to ascertain the rating of their tow vehicle hitch both static and with weight distribution forces applied. On the heavier trailers, a Class V may be required to prevent metal fatigue and a hitch receiver failure in the future due to being either overloaded or over stressed or both.

dznf0g · 07-05-2014, 06:08 AM

But tongue weight is about more than simply a payload allowance and position. It is an allowance of the weight placed at the coupler pocket which when in dynamic motion allows for only certain stresses and flexing to occur in the front of the frame and A-frame before fatigue and cracking may start. (Remember the conversation concerning rivet popping due to too much spring bar and TW?) TW is also, of course about proper proportion of weight distribution and sway.

But, in the dynamic frame capability situation, the HAHA weight hanging out front has no effect on the a-frame whatsoever. The tongue is resting on the ball as it would with any other hitch.

Your truck/receiver statements are correct, IMO. This all depends on whether you are looking for a TW number to shop/balance a truck spec. (which is really receiver weight) or you are trying to balance/not overload the AS tongue. (TW). The two are not the same calculation nor scale reading.

switz · 07-05-2014, 06:51 AM

The weight of either the Hensley or the ProPride hitch head must be taken into consideration as the hitch head is being supported by the tow vehicle receiver when connected and, after all, either hitch head is bolted to the trailer. It is part and parcel to the empty weight of the trailer unless it is physically removed from the trailer.

The attachment of the spring arms to the trailer frame does induce stress to the frame, in particular to the welded on trailer ball socket which is being asked to be the fulcrum of the teeter toter attempting to move downward force vectors to a different location on the tow vehicle.

dznf0g · 07-05-2014, 07:12 AM

I disagree.

switz · 07-05-2014, 07:21 AM

Okay.

BoldAdventure · 07-05-2014, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghaynes755

2015 FC 25 Rear Bedroom, Trailer weight 6440 and tongue 1040. 2015 Sierra 2500 Duramax and ProPride.

Is that tongue weight with the Proride attached? I've heard it adds an extra 100lbs.

A W Warn · 07-05-2014, 09:46 AM

"Load on the hitch receiver" of the tow vehicle (incorrectly called tongue weight) must be calculated by adding together the trailer tongue weight and weight of hitching apparatus.

"Tongue weight" is the weight of the trailer only, measured where the trailer tongue sets on the hitch ball. It does not include the hitch or sway control, regardless of the type.

The weight of the hitch stinger, hitch ball, sway control, and/or any other hitching apparatus is not tongue weight. The exception would be any portion of this that is permanently affixed to the trailer. Examples of this would be the pivot ball for a friction type sway control or the snap up brackets for weight distribution that are fixed to the trailer.

ghaynes755 · 07-05-2014, 03:39 PM

Alan paraphrasing what you wrote. If I were to put the PP stinger in the truck receiver, attach the ProPride head to it (not attached to the trailer) so that I have the stinger, head and bars all attached to the truck the only change to the trailer tongue weight is the additional weight of the jacks which might be 30-40 lbs?

Then I back the truck up to the trailer and let the trailer connect to the PP ball. Has the tongue weight changed? No.

Hook up the PP in it's normal condition. Unhitch from the truck. Weight on the tongue (or under the power jack stand) will be increased by the weight of the PP head. But as soon as it is hooked back up to the stinger the trailer tongue is sitting on the a hitch ball just like it started when there was no PP included.

Once you start dialing in the WD settings some of this obviously change and I'm not sure all of those mechanics.

So I guess my question is, as Alan pointed out, tongue weight is without all the doodads that can be removed. The yoke and the jacks might be included since they stay in place. Am I on the right track?

dznf0g · 07-05-2014, 04:03 PM

Yes, that's what I have been saying all along. I am curious where Alan found those definitions. Or are they your own?

rodsterinfl · 07-05-2014, 05:04 PM

Just read this whole thread. Why do you want to separate the weight of the hitch from the tongue weight? Do you need the actual tongue weight of the trailer? Since it all counts "against" the payload, I guess I do not see why it matters. Are you trying to look at hitch capacity?

What AW Warn wrote is a textbook definition of both; however, when it comes to the part where we use tongue weight as a calculation, the classic example in the RV Handbook is a hitch type that is attached to the truck. Before weighing at the CAT scale the owner is to slide in the receiver and any hitch parts adding it to the truck payload weight. Then add the trailer's weighed tongue weight to that and subtract from payload capacity. What is different here is that the PP is mostly connected to the trailer so, it WOULD be added to the tongue weight unless you wanted to disassemble it all and put it in the back of the truck and then weigh the truck. I am leaving to go get the CAT scale paperwork with/without propride.

AirHeadsRus · 07-05-2014, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rodsterinfl

Just read this whole thread. Why do you want to separate the weight of the hitch from the tongue weight? Do you need the actual tongue weight of the trailer? Since it all counts "against" the payload, I guess I do not see why it matters. Are you trying to look at hitch capacity?

I am with you on the what does it matter

rodsterinfl · 07-05-2014, 05:19 PM

Quote:

I am with you on the what does it matter

There could be a reason and I am open to listening and learning.

A W Warn · 07-05-2014, 05:21 PM

In the Airstream owner's manual, where it demonstrates how to measure tongue weight, it shows a scale under the jack pad. No hitch is included. Though, there would be a miniscule difference when tongue weight is measured at the hitch ball, due to leverage change of the scale moving forward away from the axles.

Tongue weight is dead weight on the ball, which does not include forces of torque or tension created buy the weight distribution system or weight of the hitch. Tongue weight is a measure of the trailer only. Again, look how Airstream tells you to measure tongue weight.

Why would Airstream quote a tongue weight that would include a hitch or payload, when they have no idea what the weight of your hitch will be or how much payload you will carry. That is why the tongue weight quoted by Airstream seems light to most people. It does not include the hitch, added options, water, or propane in the tanks.

add edit:
I agree that it does not matter except one person is speaking oranges and another hears apples. The important issue is how much load is applied to the tow vehicle in the form of payload upon the tow vehicle at the hitch receiver.

A W Warn · 07-05-2014, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghaynes755

Alan paraphrasing what you wrote. If I were to put the PP stinger in the truck receiver, attach the ProPride head to it (not attached to the trailer) so that I have the stinger, head and bars all attached to the truck the only change to the trailer tongue weight is the additional weight of the jacks which might be 30-40 lbs?

Then I back the truck up to the trailer and let the trailer connect to the PP ball. Has the tongue weight changed? No.

Hook up the PP in it's normal condition. Unhitch from the truck. Weight on the tongue (or under the power jack stand) will be increased by the weight of the PP head. But as soon as it is hooked back up to the stinger the trailer tongue is sitting on the a hitch ball just like it started when there was no PP included.

?

I see the logic, but do not agree with the terminology used by some people, that the hitch becomes tongue weight when fixed to the trailer. My opinion still is that PP and HaHa are still removable hitches. If someone changes to another type of hitch, did the tongue weight of the trailer change? I think not!

I'm done commenting on this subject for now.

(I do not want to seem argumentative)

rodsterinfl · 07-05-2014, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Why would Airstream quote a tongue weight that would include a hitch or payload, when they have no idea what the weight of your hitch will be or how much payload you will carry. That is why the tongue weight quoted by Airstream seems light to most people. It does not include the hitch, added options, water, or propane in the tanks.

Sounds reasonable. With the propride though, since all that "hitch" is added to the frame of the trailer it is just as easy to weigh that on such a "modified" trailer and call it tongue weight for calculations of trailer to payload capacity. Like I already posted, the alternative is to weigh the entire hitch assembly in the bed of the truck and count it as payload. To be fair, you would really have to count it as load. The load is still there- hitch and trailer tongue weight it is just moved to a different position but still on the TV.

Just read your post #59. I agree with you and disagree too. The trailer tongue weight is whatever it is once loaded. My AS published as 860 lbs. but with LP and whatever else it has gained when I weighed it 980lbs. My trailer tongue weight was 980 loaded. Later I installed to the frame of the trailer a ProPride hitch with weight. It is now a functional part of the frame. It could be said that I added the weight to the trailer but it will impact the tongue weight more just like LP. If I want to speak only of the tongue weight I say AS 960# but actual weight on my truck is higher. So I agree with your more specific term hitch weight. My other hitch was a separate affair- stick the ball/bar in the receiver and attach the ball joint to the trailer frame- no installed parts but by the RV book I was to add the 39 lb weight to the hitch weight. Never got into the bar weight!