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Old 09-27-2014, 09:35 PM   #155
cwf
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810# on our 34'. Fully loaded and running.
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Old 09-28-2014, 09:53 AM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southsaglejim View Post
I recently went over the scales to weigh all three axles on my F250 6 liter diesel pulling the 32 ft Excella. With a weight bearing hitch setup and not an equalizer setup my front axle was 4450, rear axle was 4750 and the trailer axle was 6350 with luggage and some camp gear. My total wt of 15,550 was well under my max capacity of 21,000 and the truck axle wts were also within maximums. After that weighing I have now put on the equalizer hitch so I am interested in how the distribution might be different.
Jim, glad to see your information with the same trailer, or weights are.

4460 Front
4780 Rear
7880 Trailer
17120 Total

We are setup for full time so our trailer is packed to the max. All holding tanks were empty, fresh water 3/4 full and propane down to only 1/4 of full (1/2 in one tank). Truck was 7/8 full. When I registered the truck DMV wanted a weight to calculate fees. With a full tank it weighed 7200.
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Old 09-28-2014, 10:20 AM   #157
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810# on our 34'. Fully loaded and running.
Just curious, what is your loaded trailer weight?
Thanks!
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Old 09-29-2014, 02:43 PM   #158
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Just curious, what is your loaded trailer weight?
Thanks!
9120# with 50 gallons fresh water aboard, two batteries and Bout 50 pounds of LP..(one 40# tank partially used) , all food, clothes, assorted wines... For 4 days. ( fridge was almost full). Had clothes for Sunday, too.

My wife remarked...(oh, so I can put more in the AS!!!????).. Uh, no, sweetie!!!
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Old 09-29-2014, 06:18 PM   #159
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Finally got around to reading this. Nothing quite like a stable wifi connection to brave the longer threads.

From a post in a thread switz started where I tried to convince him to get the best hitch receiver for a DODGE (Drawtite #45299) as he was mumuring something about hitch ball height, but he went ahead and got the CURT -409 (just looked it up).

I dragged the new TT 462-miles home sans WDH through the ice & snow of the first 150-miles in late December of '12. Stopped in Hillsboro for diesel and found this:

CAT Scale:

Solo (driver, full fuel, normal load)

FA - 4220
RA - 3760
7,980 (solo, new, was 6,860-lbs)

Hitched:

FA - 3820
RA -5340
TT - 6540
15,700


" . . . in addition to the axle loads, please post approximate values for:
1] the TV's wheelbase,

161"

2] the distance from the ball to the TV's rear axle, and,
84" 76" on the old TT

3] the distance from the ball to the midpoint between the TT's axles."

255" Same as old TT.

4] Bar length is the H/A 35+/-

RG, glad to see you're having fun over here. Is there enough data to make some surmises about this TT (parked as it is for yet more foreseeable future)? Leverage is the real question. I had a heckuva time trying to get FALR with the last TT (same brand, older, different design, shorter). Got about zip, in fact.

Nickcrowhurst was good enough to apply his spreadsheet to that old combined rig problem. That TT (a model 3411 [34' vs 35' now]) had a TW of 980-lbs

I've a ways to go with this new combined rig. Same truck, but truck suspension height changes will occur; the above best hitch receiver; new taller trailer tires, new TT springs and maybe either an extended length equalizer or altogether new axles of a different type. Etc. Thus a PRO PRIDE sourced adjustable H/A stinger in the meantime. I can adjust away as changes occur. Then, once all is set, an exchange stinger and cut/drill to suit.

TW always is the problem. Even with a full frame vintage kin Silver Streak. The adjustable stinger is long and the garage monkey installed the cheap CURT receiver too far back. An inch here, an inch there, whoa, I'm really stretched from RA to hitch ball right now.

And the hitched scale reading was with a nose-down TT. At least 4", maybe 5". I'm thinking that TW will be more around 1250-1300 once loaded. I might get up past 1400, but we'll see. I figure even with WD applied I'll still be at/near 1k at the receiver hitch.

Thanks

Ross

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Old 09-29-2014, 09:20 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slowmover View Post
Is there enough data to make some surmises about this TT (parked as it is for yet more foreseeable future)? Leverage is the real question. I had a heckuva time trying to get FALR with the last TT (same brand, older, different design, shorter). Got about zip, in fact.

---

And the hitched scale reading was with a nose-down TT. At least 4", maybe 5". I'm thinking that TW will be more around 1250-1300 once loaded. I might get up past 1400, but we'll see. I figure even with WD applied I'll still be at/near 1k at the receiver hitch.
Ross, your scales data indicate a tongue weight of 1316# with 136# transferred to the TT's axles giving a net load addition of 1580# on the TV. The numbers also indicate a FALR of about 42%.
However, since the TT was nose down by about 4-5", both the tongue weight and the load transferred to the TT probably are larger than the indicated values.

Have you considered switching to a High Rise Ball?
If you lift the coupler by 2", relative to the hitch head, you should get a significant increase in load transfer.

Ron
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Old 09-29-2014, 09:36 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by cwf View Post
9120# with 50 gallons fresh water aboard, two batteries and Bout 50 pounds of LP..(one 40# tank partially used) , all food, clothes, assorted wines... For 4 days. ( fridge was almost full). Had clothes for Sunday, too.

My wife remarked...(oh, so I can put more in the AS!!!????).. Uh, no, sweetie!!!
Thanks cwf!

I had heard that the 34 ft Airstreams have tongue weight less than 10% of the trailer weight (in your case its just below 9%), yet they are very stable.
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Old 09-29-2014, 10:35 PM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rostam View Post
Thanks cwf!

I had heard that the 34 ft Airstreams have tongue weight less than 10% of the trailer weight (in your case its just below 9%), yet they are very stable.
Yes, that much mass along with good and well set hitch, plus, the right horse to lead the way and it works!

Now, because of length, if careless, I could imbalance things. For instance, if I were to have full waste tanks, store 200k rounds of 50cal ammo and weapons against the stern wall, I could get a lot of weight off the "front/bow". That would put more weight on rear AND increase load on rear axle.

On " level " ground, the "bow"/nose is about 3/8" higher than the rear/"stern".

We run with very consistent loading on TV and AS and have no surprises. The AS once had EzyLift WD and "sway damping". It did "move" when big trucks passed and other wind conditions occurred. Now, there is no "sway" at all.

Now, my first transportation after my feet and bicycle was a boat. Then aircraft. I am keen on "weight and balance" having experienced / survived "improper" loading.

So, take time to PLAN then execute well. Hardware will only get you so far.
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Old 10-29-2014, 10:31 PM   #163
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More Data...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adiredneck View Post
I ordered and received the Sherline shortly after my prior post, but my A/S was down in Gulfport for some warranty work (cracked FW tank), so I didn't get to try it out. Results of today's weigh in showed 900# tongue weight, with the TT dead level front to back (per the stick-on bubble levels, anyway). All tanks are empty, one propane tank full, the other at 1/2. The manufacture weight sticker says it weighed 6509 at the factory, and the literature for a 2014 27FB Classic Limited says the base weight (w/ LP, w/o water or cargo) should be 6672 and "hitch weight" (also w/ LP and w/o water or cargo) should be 792.

At 900# "dry weight" I guess I need to watch what/where we pack. We don't bring all that much, as a two-week vacation is the extent of all trips, and I don't see us exceeding the 2491 lbs of allowable cargo/fluids per weight sticker (9000#GVW).

We're heading out for a trip next month, and I will weigh her again when she is loaded with clothes, food, gear and around 25% filled FW tank. I also want to hit some CAT scales on our trip to get some axle weights for both TV and TT. Anything else I should be watching or aware of?

PS - dumb newbie off-subject question: I'd like to check the torque on A/S lug nuts, but they have aluminum snap caps over them. Is there a trick to popping them off so I can put a socket on them without breaking/bending them?
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Sorry for doing this in fits and starts, but that's pretty much the way things go around here.

First, I need to make a clarification on the above post due to a later discovery. When I weighed the tongue with the Sherline and got 900# I was assuming that was on a pretty much "dry weight" basis, as we had not started to load anything for the trip, and I thought all water tanks were empty. Come to find out, the shop had loaded the fresh water tank to full after they had replaced it, so it was carrying the full 54 gallons.

I did manage to stop by a CAT scale on my way back to Mississippi from New York State last week, and here are my readings:

With TV/TT hitched and WD (Equil-i-zer) connected, 25% in FW tank, 1 full 40 gal LP tank, one empty; maybe 5 gals each in BW and GW, driver, full diesel fuel tank and gear/cargo on board for a 2 week vacation:

Front Axle: 3980

Rear Axle: 4240

Trailer axle: 6620

Gross Weight: 14480

I know that to get a full and accurate picture, I needed to unhitch the truck and trailer and weigh each individually and without weight distribution, but we were already pushing for a 600 mile day, so that didn't happen. The factory weight (with propane, without water or cargo) of the trailer was 6509; also, per the old window sticker, the dry weight of the truck should be 6140 (GVWR - stated payload). So, if I'm doing the math correctly - which is highly doubtable - my combined curb weight for both should be 12649, meaning I had 1831# of fuel and cargo? Does that sound right?

Well, here's my contribution - more raw data if not enlightenment!
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Old 10-30-2014, 05:39 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Ron Gratz View Post
Ross, your scales data indicate a tongue weight of 1316# with 136# transferred to the TT's axles giving a net load addition of 1580# on the TV. The numbers also indicate a FALR of about 42%.
However, since the TT was nose down by about 4-5", both the tongue weight and the load transferred to the TT probably are larger than the indicated values.

Have you considered switching to a High Rise Ball?
If you lift the coupler by 2", relative to the hitch head, you should get a significant increase in load transfer.

Ron
I know this sounds pretty anti-intuitive but, tongue low will register lighter tongue weight, while tongue high will register higher weight. Only perfectly level trailer will register accurate tongue weight
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Old 10-30-2014, 08:57 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by boondockdad View Post
I know this sounds pretty anti-intuitive but, tongue low will register lighter tongue weight, while tongue high will register higher weight. Only perfectly level trailer will register accurate tongue weight
Tongue low moves the CG forward and increases TW.....on a single axle trailer or trailers with spring suspension and an equalizing link.

On a multi axle trailer with independent torsion axles, the change in CG is offset by more weight on front axle when tongue is low. What that offset is, I don't know, but it is different when center of combined axles' load moves forward relative to the midpoint between axles.

So....IMO, you're both thinking right with certain setups.
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Old 10-30-2014, 09:30 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by dznf0g View Post
On a multi axle trailer with independent torsion axles, the change in CG is offset by more weight on front axle when tongue is low. What that offset is, I don't know, but it is different when center of combined axles' load moves forward relative to the midpoint between axles.
When a trailer with independent torsion axles is in a nose-down stance, the front axle arm pivot point moves downward relative to its axle and the rear axle pivot point moves upward.
The load on the front axle increases and the load on the rear axle decreases.

If the TT's ball coupler is down 4" relative to a "level" stance, and the distance from ball to axles' mid-point is 20', the slope of the TT would be about 1 degree.
Assuming the center-to-center axle spacing is 3', the front torsion tube axis would drop about 0.32" and the rear tube axis would rise about 0.32".
Assuming an axle pivot arm length of 6", the arm would rotate about 3 degrees.

A typical torsion axle will swing 22.5 degrees when the load changes from unloaded to rated load.
An torsion axle rated for 5000# would have a spring coefficient of 5000/22.5 = 222 #/degree.
An axle-arm angle change of 3 degrees would correspond to a tire load change of 666#.

With a center-to-center axle spacing of 3', an increased load of 666# on the front axle and a decreased load of 666# on the rear axle would generate a torque of 666*3 = about 2000 lb-ft.

For this example, the torque combined with the ball-to-axles distance of 20' would result in a decreased tongue load of about 100#.

Ron
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Old 10-30-2014, 09:56 PM   #167
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Ron, Unless I am missing something, I don't see where you have accounted for the change in CG of the sprung load as the AS tilts forward.
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Old 10-30-2014, 10:26 PM   #168
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Ron, Unless I am missing something, I don't see where you have accounted for the change in CG of the sprung load as the AS tilts forward.
It depends on how far above the axles the CG is located.

If we assume the CG is 2' above the axles, a 1 degree nose-down slope would cause the CG to move forward about 0.4".
Assuming 8000# of unsprung weight, this forward movement would result in a torque of about 8000*0.4/12 = 267 lb-ft.

With a ball-to-axles distance of 20', the forward movement of the CG would cause the ball load to increase by about 267/20 = 13#.

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