Please help newbie demystify towing ...

[mefly2]

Could you ...yes.
Should you ... that's up to you. We feel more comfortable and safer in our 3/4 than we did with the 1/2T. Do a search and you will come up with a myriad of reasons for the HD tow...especially noteworthy on hills and mountains.

[Foiled Again]

Hello and welcome. I notice you're a fellow Virginian. I'll add my comments. First find a nearby AirForums Really or your local WBCCI unit - it's the WDCU - Washington DC Unit... younger and more progressive than many others. Find out if they're having a buddy rally or if you might get a chance to meet some veteran Airstream owners who'll help you make an informed decision about a tow vehicle.

Frankly if you're attracted to the 28 you'll probably not be crazy about going down to a 25 or smaller - so one of the things you might want to look at is buying an old well used 3/4 or 1 ton truck. You DO NOT NEED a 3/4 for anything BUT towing so if you find one with 250,000 miles that's diesel and has had regular maintenance - it's good to go CAMPING for a couple of years and can be bought for a fraction of a newer one. Lots of folks have "daily drivers" and older "tow vehicles" that pretty much sit until it's time to go camping for the weekend.

Depending on the type of camping you're interested in you just might be able to get along without another tow vehicle for quite a while. I do think the Ram 1500 is a fine tow vehicle for up to a 25 - and while it's iffy for a 28 footer if you confine your trips to low hills and interstates you can get by. Going really up in the mountains on 2 lanes - I wouldn't. And a lot depends on FAMILY. If you have relatives who are willing to lend you a truck - take it.

No truck rental place will rent a vehicle to be used towing a trailer. I'm also fond of buying A used Airstream the first time around. Big savings that way. Enough to buy a 3/4 ton tow vehicle. I presume you went to Safford RV - about average for an RV dealership - which is mediocre. You'll get better advice and price and service elsewhere. (Colonial).

Happy trails.

[dkottum]

Take a moment to consider the size difference between a 25 and 28 Airstream.

The 28 is actually only 24" longer, but with exact frontal dimensions, they have the same frontal air resistance. You will not notice the difference towing either.

The 28 has 300 lbs more axle load capacity. Fully loaded Ram 1500 and 25 will be about 13,000 lbs. Fully loaded Ram 1500 and 28 will be about 13,300 lbs. You will not notice the difference towing either.

The 28 has 65 lbs greater hitch weight, with weight distribution that's maybe 20 lbs to each truck axle and 15 lbs to the trailer axles. You will not notice the difference towing either.

The 25, 26, 27 and 28 are all mid-size Airstreams. Pick the size you like, you will not notice the difference towing either. (By the way, the 27 is 1" longer than the 28, and has he same axles).

[tjdonahoe]

I am wondering about how much experience is in the above posts....

[crisen]

As to renting a tow vehicle, Enterprise truck rental does. We rented a 2016 Ram 2500 diesel for towing while our truck was in the shop for a few days while visiting Phoenix last winter. They do charge $20/day extra for towing.

[dkottum]

Originally Posted by tjdonahoe

I am wondering about how much experience is in the above posts....

Good point, most have extensive experience and those are the one's we try to learn from. Some have none, just search the internet until they find something they like.

We have owned smaller and mid-size Airstreams, towed both all over the country and have spent some 48 months traveling and living in them. We have towed them with three different half-ton trucks, three different w.d. hitches.

We have experimented and learned some things about them and share our experience with those who ask. We love to read the experience of others and the chance to continue learning. I especially like to read about those whose Airstream experience goes back 30, 40, 50 years; that experience goes beyond the latest truck test and puts it into perspective.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by SpletKay06

The air ride Elimates the weight transfer issues by making the truck sit level, loaded or empty. The reason our rams get squirly is the junk tires our trucks come with I switched to E load range Bfg K02's and its a huge improvement.

Air ride doesn't eliminate the weight transfer issues. The axle weights will be the same.

What it can do is eliminate the appearance issues, the rear end sag, and thereby mask the weight transfer issues.

It isn't the sag that causes the handling problems, in most cases. It is the reduction in front axle loading.

[BoldAdventure]

Originally Posted by tjdonahoe

I am wondering about how much experience is in the above posts....

A lot of years.

Originally Posted by jcl

Air ride doesn't eliminate the weight transfer issues. The axle weights will be the same.

What it can do is eliminate the appearance issues, the rear end sag, and thereby mask the weight transfer issues.

It isn't the sag that causes the handling problems, in most cases. It is the reduction in front axle loading.

That's why everyone on this forum advocates a WD/Anti-sway hitch that is setup properly and hitting the scales.

If you don't do this, it's your own fault that you have handling problems.

[SpletKay06]

I have confirmed that with air bags my front axle weights the same loaded and unloaded thats a fact. All a good wd hitch well help is with sway and lowering tongue weight which is what there for.

[dkottum]

A well set up w.d hitch will distribute some hitch weight and some weight in the rear of the truck bed to the truck's steering axle, with a portion to the trailer's axle(s). If the bars are tilted down toward the rear, the bars will resist the trailer moving out of alignment with the truck and help it return to center when it does. The downward tilt will also resist the tendency of the truck to roll slightly in higher speed turns, improving tow vehicle stability.

Adding sway control or sway elimination devices to the w.d. hitch design makes them at least as important as truck and trailer design for towing. Keeping in mind good hitch setup is what makes them work well.

[switz]

In the changing to an airbag suspension, the axles did not change. So even though I have rear airbags rated for 10,000 pounds, the axle rating of 6,010 pounds controls the load. The E rated Michelins are rated for that load at 70 (of 80 max) psi. There is a similar constraint on the front axle despite the air bags.

The air bags keep my truck level all the time and the complete air bag system with an air compressor added 100 pounds to the empty weight of the truck after removing all the steel springs and their associated parts. They also allow for a softer ride for the front of the trailer.

There was NO increase in load capacity (really a 100 pound decrease) by this suspension modification.

[AIRHEDS]

So, I called the dealership. Not sure if I mentioned I only bought the truck in December. I told him about my predicament: My door sticker states I can carry 1,040 lbs of payload ... and the RAM website stated for my VIN, as configured/ordered, that my max payload was 1300 lbs and that my towable weight was 7860 lbs. He said - "that's not right ..." Your truck will tow 10,500 lbs AND carry 1,900 payload (passengers and cargo) ... all simultaneously! Come on ... you don't think RAM would make a truck that wouldn't hold 5 workers and be able to tow!? The loggers go up and down here every day with 10,500 lbs in their 1500's." I corrected him with what I learned from this forum and he insisted that I was wrong ... that hitch weight wasn't included. So using RAM's towing site, which made more sense to me after spending time reading all of your posts, I found the info I needed on the RAM websites to prove he was wrong. He asked me to contact RAM Corporate because that can't be right. So I did. I spoke with a young lady who opened a case up for me and insisted, reading general documents, that I could tow (based on my VIN number), 10,650 lbs AND separately add 1600 lbs of passengers and cargo. That was a new number - no idea where it came from be she also insisted that the tongue weight was irrelevant. SO ... they have opened a case and they included the information I presented to them which includes their own websites saying that you must subtract tongue weight from the payload for an adjusted payload, which in my case would be 1000 lbs from 1040 lbs. The young lady from corporate couldn't believe it ... their own website shows that the tongue weight needs to be 10-25% of the trailer weight. I said, it wasn't possible to tow a 10,000 trailer with 10% weight and drive the truck. She got her manager involved who opened the case. And yes, because I have the integrated computer-controlled air suspension, if I go over my weight, it will error and bust my warranty. So, in closing, does anyone have a 5 year old that can drive my truck and trailer for me because my fat ass will put the truck over its limit. I'll also have to leave my wife, kids, chairs, food, generator, water, and cookies (the main reason that I need a 5 year old to drive my truck). http://www.airforums.com/forums/imag...lies/angry.gif Here's the best part. I'm checking out 2500's and 3500's. They're all too big to park in my underground parking garage. So, in addition to ditching my 5 month old truck, needing to buy a trailer, needing to buy a new tow vehicle that will actually carry my fat ass and my box (okay ... boxes) of cookies, and the rest of our stuff, I'll also need to buy another vehicle to commute to/from work daily. So I broke the news to my wife... That's a story for another time. Get your cookies ready.

[Bill M.]

You just talked me out of buying a new Dodge. I was seriously considering it. Far as I am concerned it is an American right to be able to sometimes overload a pickup truck. What is the point of having one? Sensor to bust warranty? No way for me. If it says Ram tough it better be.

Do they still sell the trucks with real springs?

Does Dodge use the new industry standard to messure towing capacity? They must have a retired jockey to drive it up the course sitting on a plastic Coke crate.

We tow a 25' with a 2007 Dodge 2500 4x4. We have 175000 miles on it, about 1/3 of which is towing. (my experience). And you are right about parking garages. It is too high for many of them and scary in the ones it is supposed to fit. The 2x4 trucks are a couple of inches lower.

There are 1/2 tons you can tow Airstreams with. But it does not sound like the air suspension Dodge is one of them. I bet they cannot tell you how heavy the load must be to trip the sensor?

[Plasma800]

exactly.........

Originally Posted by riffin-rich

So, I called the dealership. Not sure if I mentioned I only bought the truck in December. I told him about my predicament: My door sticker states I can carry 1,040 lbs of payload ... and the RAM website stated for my VIN, as configured/ordered, that my max payload was 1300 lbs and that my towable weight was 7860 lbs. He said - "that's not right ..." Your truck will tow 10,500 lbs AND carry 1,900 payload (passengers and cargo) ... all simultaneously! Come on ... you don't think RAM would make a truck that wouldn't hold 5 workers and be able to tow!? The loggers go up and down here every day with 10,500 lbs in their 1500's." I corrected him with what I learned from this forum and he insisted that I was wrong ... that hitch weight wasn't included. So using RAM's towing site, which made more sense to me after spending time reading all of your posts, I found the info I needed on the RAM websites to prove he was wrong. He asked me to contact RAM Corporate because that can't be right. So I did. I spoke with a young lady who opened a case up for me and insisted, reading general documents, that I could tow (based on my VIN number), 10,650 lbs AND separately add 1600 lbs of passengers and cargo. That was a new number - no idea where it came from be she also insisted that the tongue weight was irrelevant. SO ... they have opened a case and they included the information I presented to them which includes their own websites saying that you must subtract tongue weight from the payload for an adjusted payload, which in my case would be 1000 lbs from 1040 lbs. The young lady from corporate couldn't believe it ... their own website shows that the tongue weight needs to be 10-25% of the trailer weight. I said, it wasn't possible to tow a 10,000 trailer with 10% weight and drive the truck. She got her manager involved who opened the case. And yes, because I have the integrated computer-controlled air suspension, if I go over my weight, it will error and bust my warranty. So, in closing, does anyone have a 5 year old that can drive my truck and trailer for me because my fat ass will put the truck over its limit. I'll also have to leave my wife, kids, chairs, food, generator, water, and cookies (the main reason that I need a 5 year old to drive my truck). http://www.airforums.com/forums/imag...lies/angry.gif Here's the best part. I'm checking out 2500's and 3500's. They're all too big to park in my underground parking garage. So, in addition to ditching my 5 month old truck, needing to buy a trailer, needing to buy a new tow vehicle that will actually carry my fat ass and my box (okay ... boxes) of cookies, and the rest of our stuff, I'll also need to buy another vehicle to commute to/from work daily. So I broke the news to my wife... That's a story for another time. Get your cookies ready.

[J. Morgan]

There are three kinds of people in this debate.

1. Those who study the published figures and data and come to a decision.

2. Those who simply use what they have and decide whether it works or not.

3. Those who study published data, and to it add the benefit of practical experience and decide what works and its limitations.

Practically speaking, whether everyone agrees or not, a good weight distribution device coupled with GOOD TIRES WILL extend the practical payload of a tow vehicle.

This is much of the philosophy at CanAm, and mine as well.

Everyone is going to pretty much do what they think is right, as will I.

I love my 1/2 ton to tow my Airstream, I would never feel forced to buy a 3/4 to or bigger just for the sake of towing it. My combination tows super sweet even with 1,200 pounds of tools and stuff in my pickup box.

I know there are folks here who will not believe that, but I have A LOT of towing experience, I know what a nice towing setup feels like.


Superat stultitia.

[dkottum]

You are frustrated, no wonder as there is no one at Ram you talked to who knows a damn thing about setting up a truck for towing, the effect of weight distribution or balancing trailer load and equipment.

We have steel coil springs, our Airstream loaded for travel 7300 lbs and ProPride hitch add 820 lbs to the truck at last weighing. The factory hitch weight spec is 835 lbs empty and ProPride hitch assembly 180 lbs. Go figure.

Our Ram GVWR is 6950, total axle capacity 7800, total tire capacity 10400. This is our second Ram with these ratings, my experience is the GVWR is hundreds of pounds less than what the truck is easily capable of with an Airstream trailer and well set up weight distribution hitch, drives, brakes and handles extremely well.

My experience without the trailer, I would not exceed GVWR loading only the truck bed. An entirely different driving, handling and braking experience, bed loads put everything on the rear axle, our trailer with w.d. puts even loads on the axles.

Then there is the Ram air suspension measuring and reporting GVWR overload, and the fellow who told you it would "bust your warranty". Yes it does measure loads, I doubt it's there to "bust warranties" but if the word gets out that it does it will be "busting sales" big time. Read Bill M.'s followup post. Do you think Ram marketing will have a word about that.

I suspect the fellow who is telling customers an overloaded GVWR on their air suspension is a gotcha to "bust their warranty" will have the marketing division in an uproar, we'll see. We, nor many others would have the air suspension if this is the case, and I like the functional features it provides.

Another thought. Most of us are recreational Airstreamers, we don't tow these things up and down the highways and mountains on a daily basis. Much of the time we use them as the family car. I doubt our combined daily and recreational use puts unusual wear and tear on our trucks.

Our last Ram we traded in with 50,000 miles, never in the shop for a single repair, 45,000 miles on original tires with some wear left, brakes showing minor wear, actual trade-in value $4500 less than we paid for it. And with seven months retirement travel and camping every year, we towed far more than most working people.

Were we sometimes above GVRW when towing, probably. Were we above GVWR hauling bed loads, tried it, never again. There's a difference we as users know but manufacturers don't account for. Get to know your truck and you will know what it can do.

[Rocinante]

Overall we're quite happy with our RAM 1500 as a TV for our 27FB, though we're right at our truck's GVWR with the trailer attached and loaded for camping.

That said, in retrospect it's clear our dealer knew nothing about using this vehicle for serious towing. Their goal was to sell us a truck. Ironically, if they'd had a deeper understanding of the subject, they probably could have sold us a 2500.

It's also clear that at the time our Airstream dealer knew very little about actual tongue weights for the trailers they sell. They just quoted the literature.

So it's on each of us to do lots of towing homework, which is frustrating because this stuff isn't exactly black magic.

[GoWhereTowed]

Well,I guess this clears up everything.

[AIRHEDS]

Originally Posted by Bill M.

You just talked me out of buying a new Dodge. I was seriously considering it.

So Bill, let me be clear (no disrespect/tone intended). I love my RAM 1500 Crew Cab and 6'4" box! I had a 2011 F150 that I got rid of not too long ago ... My RAM is many times better than my old Ford was in so many regards ... like not even close. I also had a 2001 F250 with a 7.3L Turbo Diesel and it was the hardest thing I did to get rid of it ... a 2 year assignment to Turkey with no place to store it forced me to sell it ... it turns out that it was the best-ever diesel engine Ford ever made. (I'm not trolling ... just spouting personal opinions.)

Don't run away from the RAM. It's an amazing vehicle. I'm mixed on the airbags now ... not sure if they come on the Heavy Duty's ... will have to check ... but if they do, I'll probably consider adding them back on. For example, on the 1500, put 5 sheets of 3/4 plywood in the bed ... pshhhhhhhhhhhhhhht ... and the truck is level. Now add 5 more sheets ... pshhhhhhhhhhhhhhht. Level again. Or empty, get out on the highway and hit 60 mph ... Pshhhhhhhhht and it drops into Aero mode to save gas. Got to let mom out of the truck? Press the button ... you know ... pshhhhhht ... the truck drops down and you cringe because its still not low enough for mom and you realize you should have dropped your cookies to get out and help her so she doesn't face-plant because it's still too high for her because she must have eaten too many cookies when she was my age ...

I didn't mean to create contention with my posts but it seems that this thread has the potential to induce unnecessary conflict. For everyone else, I humbly respect and admire your collective knowledge and experience. I haven't gained the wisdom you have. That said, I have devoured the RAM towing info enough to find silly inconsistencies/caveats and it's clear that RAM employees don't understand towing. I trust the same is true for many dealerships of all brands ... nothing against RAM employees/dealers.

In my case, I want (the wife wants) a Serenity 28 and I'm good with it because I love it too--the layout just works so well for us. Empty, it's 6K lbs with a 950 lb tongue weight. While there are many towing experts out there who may have mastered the loading/weighing thing ... I'm not sure I want to deal with that. The one thing that's clear to me is that my door sticker says 1040 lbs payload and RAM's site clearly states tongue weight consumes payload. I weigh 225; my wife weighs ... well ... I learned my lesson so ... Since the 28 is a rear-bed and I can certainly lighten the tongue weight with weight under the bed... so I would certainly want to learn how to manipulate my tongue weight... Beyond that, I want to be able to load-up without pause for concern. It's just a comfort/reassurance issue ... I think it's reasonable to have a 20% trailer weight safety buffer on max tow capacity. I'd like to load-up the "CREW CAB" with 4 adults and a child or two, and put the generator, chairs and, yes, a couple boxes of cookies, in the truck with me.

Bottom line: In my case, because I don't have the experience, it would appear that it might be more safe to just get a truck with more capacity, like a RAM 2500 or 3500 SRW and just not care how many cookies I bring. No?

[dkottum]

-rich, I can't help but wonder if, camping with 4 adults and a child or two, their gear, your gear, and all those cookies you should start by asking if a 28' Airstream is a good choice.

I can tell you our 25' Airstream, two feet shorter than a 28, is a good fit for Cheryl and I, a full house. And that our new Ram 1500 was carefully chosen by us, based on plenty of experience and research, as the nearest perfect match to our lifestyle and towing needs.

Maybe you ought to reevaluate the plan by asking about real life Airstream travel trailer capacity, and then consider the tow vehicle. You may find like we did with both truck and trailer that some, not all, manufacturer specifications are better considered as recommendations rather than what the truck or trailer is actually capable of.