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08-19-2015, 11:27 AM
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#1
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Rivet Master
2015 25' Flying Cloud
Bend
, Oregon
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 761
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Pivot Point Projection handling in marginal conditions
When we bought our Airstream the piggy bank took a hit and we only had money for an Equal-I-zer hitch. now this has served us great and I am generally very happy with it.
Going forward, into the winter, we plan on driving up the mountains more and more. This means we will encounter some variable conditions that I do not want to experience with a regular ball hitch set up. I have seen too many trailers jack-knife on the US 26.
The problem is the trailer can break traction before the TV (which is on snow tires) and that can cause all the problems.
What I would like to know is:
With a PPP set up, when the trailer tires loose traction on a slippery surface (we can assume snow on a level road) how does this impact the stability of the rig overall? How do you handle such an issue and regain control?
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08-19-2015, 12:10 PM
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#2
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Rivet Master
2012 25' FB Eddie Bauer
Vintage Kin Owner
Virginia Beach
, Virginia
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,801
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Snow? OH NO!
Many new trucks have integrated brake controllers which work automatically when they sense that the trailer is swaying. I don't know how they work, but mine pleasantly surprised me when I was foolish enough to tow a 34 foot Avion with the F-150 Ecoboost.
Unless add on brake controllers have been substantially improved I doubt if they have the anti-sway feature.
I'd tow in the snow only if a human life depended on me doing it. There is no equipment I know of that would make any RV "good to go in snow".
And then I'd be creeping along at 20 mph with 4 WD engaged. I'm not a professional trucker and I don't have a trailer equipped with air brakes AND my reactions couldn't possibly be fast enough to compensate for a sideways slide induced by the slightest turn of the tow vehicle or the banking of the road, or a pothole, or...
With snow or worse, black ice, you have to think of any trailer as being a psychotic pit bull. In an eye blink it goes wild and even the brakes are useless once it's going sideways on a slippery surface. A member who has been inactive for several years THECATSANDI had two snow related accidents - the second one when she was towing her Airstream just a few miles to SELL it. The first was black ice related. She very luckily had moderate damage only both times. You might want to read her threads by doing an ADVANCED SEARCH with her user name and "accident" as the keyword.
If you want to travel to the hills, check the weather first, have a backup plan to STORE the trailer if the weather turns bad... and if you must go on long trips, consider SOUTH as the best direction for travel (specifically Arizona, New Mexico, southern California)
__________________
Today is a gift, that's why they call it the present.
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08-19-2015, 12:33 PM
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#3
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Rivet Master
2012 25' Flying Cloud
Battle Lake
, Minnesota
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,714
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Agree with Paula, don't tow in these conditions.
But there is an advantage the Hensley/ProPride design over other w.d./sway control hitches that use friction to control sway.
On slippery roadways, if the trailer gets out of alignment with the tow vehicle, the friction that controls sway also can hinder the trailer from returning to alignment with the truck. A wind gust can move the trailer out, the friction resists it's return.
The Hensley design does not use friction at all, so there is no resistance from returning to alignment if the truck is turned out of alignment with the trailer.
Another hitch design that can be adapted to cope with these conditions is one with w.d. only, and separate friction sway control bars. You can loosen the friction sway control without losing weight distribution. Not good either, but you may be able to travel slowly until out of the bad roads. Not as good as the Hensley design but possibly better than the combination friction sway control/w.d. hitch.
It's just best to avoid these roads when possible.
__________________
Doug and Cheryl
2012 FC RB, Michelin 16, ProPride 1400
2016 Ram 1500 Laramie Crew Cab 4X4 Ecodiesel 3.92 axles
The Truth is More Important Than the Facts
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08-19-2015, 12:38 PM
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#4
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Rivet Master
1972 31' Sovereign
1975 31' Excella 500
Currently Looking...
Benton
, Arkansas
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 5,868
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Pivot Point Projection handling in marginal conditions
I found myself in the left lane going up a hill passing a truck early this summer and hydroplaning what I imagine was two hundred feet or better....
It scared the carp out of me but the truck and trailer stayed straight and true.
The road was A LOT more rutted than I thought it would be.
(Hensley)
__________________
The fact that I am opinionated does not presuppose that I am wrong......
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08-19-2015, 12:38 PM
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#5
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Vintage Kin
Fort Worth
, Texas
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,014
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Chaining up the tires on a big truck is pretty much my least favorite thing to do. It's also pretty much the only answer to keeping the trailer behind the truck.
A VPP hitch is always good, but I wouldn't expect it to keep me out of trouble, just delay the onset of the problem and maybe minimize the result. I've read of a night time highway black ice incident where the VPP kept the trailer aligned with the truck after a pair of 360s. That both were still upright off in the dirt was the thing.
It wouldn't be my choice to tow in snow/ice, so I hope someone with the experience you want chimes in.
And as with the above post, I recommend you do a search of this topic as it has come up more than once the past ten years.
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08-19-2015, 12:41 PM
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#6
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Rivet Master
1972 31' Sovereign
1975 31' Excella 500
Currently Looking...
Benton
, Arkansas
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 5,868
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When I was in a truck more, I always figured that if I need chains, I dont need to be on the road.
__________________
The fact that I am opinionated does not presuppose that I am wrong......
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08-19-2015, 12:47 PM
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#7
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Mantua
, Ohio
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 7,062
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If you ever see me towing in icy conditions, you can put ME in chains!
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08-19-2015, 12:54 PM
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#8
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4 Rivet Member
2012 25' FB Eddie Bauer
Fairbanks
, Alaska
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 268
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I can't comment on the advantages of the projection point hitch design but towing in snow doesn't have to be the end of the world. We have towed a 4500 lb two axle snowmachine trailer, a 28 ft toyhauler and the 25ft EB thousands of miles in snow. We use the M&S tires on the trailer and have a 4x4 truck with winter rated tires and engage the 4x4 frequently, sure it hurts the mileage but I wouldn't leave the driveway towing in winter with 2wd. A limited slip or locker on 2wd won't cut it. My experience in snow and running in 2wd even with a limited slip is the back end of the tow vehicle will step out before the trailer will loose traction. Hitches have been plain old drawtite without any sway control or an Andersen. We carry chains as an emergency but have never had to put them on.
__________________
Rick
"When you find yourself in a hole - quit digging!"
2012 1/2 Eddie Bauer, 2016 Ram Laramie 3500 SWB 4x4 6.7L Cummins 68RFE
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08-19-2015, 12:54 PM
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#9
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Rivet Master
2012 25' Flying Cloud
Battle Lake
, Minnesota
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,714
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It can happen on a mountain pass or weather front moving through when you least expect it.
__________________
Doug and Cheryl
2012 FC RB, Michelin 16, ProPride 1400
2016 Ram 1500 Laramie Crew Cab 4X4 Ecodiesel 3.92 axles
The Truth is More Important Than the Facts
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08-19-2015, 04:29 PM
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#10
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Rivet Master
2015 25' Flying Cloud
Bend
, Oregon
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 761
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Thanks for the concern about conditions. While I do not intend to tow on snow or ice, I do I tend to be in the mountains during the winter. So this is really about risk mitigation and being prepared for issues.
m+s tire especially wiped would help for sure and I will add that to my list. In OR we need chains on one axle of a trailer too.
The biggest concern is losing traction under breaking...
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08-19-2015, 09:50 PM
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#11
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Rivet Master
1999 34' Excella
Currently Looking...
Hillsboro
, Texas
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 6,406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gsmblue
Thanks for the concern about conditions. While I do not intend to tow on snow or ice, I do I tend to be in the mountains during the winter. So this is really about risk mitigation and being prepared for issues.
m+s tire especially wiped would help for sure and I will add that to my list. In OR we need chains on one axle of a trailer too.
The biggest concern is losing traction under breaking...
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I don't know... But on very muddy roads and pavement with mud on it show no change in behavior. I did notice the whole rig tried to "go straight"'when I entered a muddied pavement curve. That is what the PPP hitches are supposed to do.. Help keep "in line". On muddy road in curve running 4x4, not the same.. There was no wiggle or sense of loss of control. ProPride rigged
__________________
Peace and Blessings..
Channing
WBCCI# 30676
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08-19-2015, 10:20 PM
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#12
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Rivet Master
2004 25' Classic
Prescott
, Arizona
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 623
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What about the Reese dual cam one. Isn't it the only one that actually brings the trailer back in line if it does slide out some?
__________________
Julia & Bob
W/ Deedee & Boo
AIR #30685
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08-19-2015, 10:41 PM
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#13
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Rivet Master
2015 25' Flying Cloud
Bend
, Oregon
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 761
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Thanks for the input guys. I need to check out the Reese, it seems like a "halfway house" to me.... So far..
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08-20-2015, 05:23 AM
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#14
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3 Rivet Member
2003 30' Classic
Centerville
, Ohio
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkottum
Agree with Paula, don't tow in these conditions.
But there is an advantage the Hensley/ProPride design over other w.d./sway control hitches that use friction to control sway.
On slippery roadways, if the trailer gets out of alignment with the tow vehicle, the friction that controls sway also can hinder the trailer from returning to alignment with the truck. A wind gust can move the trailer out, the friction resists it's return.
The Hensley design does not use friction at all, so there is no resistance from returning to alignment if the truck is turned out of alignment with the trailer.
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Correct statement. I also would never recommend it, nor would I say you can do it with any hitch (5th wheel trucks toss trailers off the road everyday, with 5th wheel arguably the most stable form of towing, in fact, you seldom see a trailer induced accident in semis, other than on slick roads). I do know owners of a HA that have done it and they were quite happy with the results. But then again, I have met many a person who slid off an icy road. Not for me, not with a trailer.
__________________
Phil and Kathy Sinewe
2003 30' Classic W/Hensley Arrow
2014 F-150
Centerville, OH
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08-20-2015, 05:29 AM
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#15
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3 Rivet Member
2003 30' Classic
Centerville
, Ohio
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 133
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Again, there is an important point here. Basically, all standard hitches use friction, they basically "muscle" the trailer into behaving.
Now, add poor weather, and that poor weather directly, very directly contacts the friction device you are counting on controlling the trailer. Bad idea in my simply little mind.
On the flip side, you are asking that friction device to "decide" when you do and do not need that "muscle" controlling the trailer. So, as stated above, as you try to get a trailer back in line. The friction device just keeps doing it's thing, trying to "muscle" the trailer into submission, in nearly all designs as far as I know, the friction device does not know the difference from the trailer straight, or the trailer cocked.
That is what always worried my about a friction device. When I want it to take a break the most, it is not likely going to happen, or it will be wet and will no longer by physically capable of doing the job.
__________________
Phil and Kathy Sinewe
2003 30' Classic W/Hensley Arrow
2014 F-150
Centerville, OH
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08-20-2015, 07:12 AM
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#16
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Rivet Master
1999 34' Excella
Currently Looking...
Hillsboro
, Texas
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 6,406
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The PP doesn't use friction to maintain alignment... So, should there be a misalignment, recovery is not hindered by friction.
__________________
Peace and Blessings..
Channing
WBCCI# 30676
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08-20-2015, 10:48 AM
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#17
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Rivet Master
2013 31' Classic
billings
, Montana
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,570
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On our way home from california we were in a good storm with 40 mph side wind with blowing snow on a icy road between Henerys Flat and Enis,Mt. Over Raynolds pass .Four wheel drive and 35 miles an hour,arrived at Ennis after dark, the Reese with cams worked good, sure glad to have a heavy dodge and 6.7.....
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08-20-2015, 10:49 AM
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#18
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Rivet Master
2012 23' FB International
Woodstock
, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,423
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I'll second cwf's experience. With a friction anti-sway I got caught on icy surface in a curve and could not turn, The whole rig just become one long integrated piece of equipment on rails. I only gained control when the front tires caught the gravel at the edge of the road...I will not travel in Icy conditions ever again, at least not on purpose. Compare this experience to the Hensley action. When you brake and the trailer tires are not holding back, the hitch off-sets as it moves up on the TV. In that position the rig is one long integrated piece of equipment and the trailer cannot twist. So PPP or Hensley, if your trailer is pushing the TV on ice I think you will not be able to turn. Anyone have different experience? please step in ..I'd like to know for certain) Very few of us like Crisen have M&S tires on the trailer that at least help as long as the trailer is braking a bit ahead of the TV.
This is my understanding ....could be wrong!
Another thought ...If there is salt on the road...which may not be used in mountains in the mid-west... your trailer will take a severe hit on all aluminum fittings; not to mention the under carriage and belly pan. We got caught in a storm east of Windsor and the newly polished fittings all got severely pitted from road salt used here in Ontario. One more reason to stay out of snow and ice
JCW
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08-20-2015, 11:58 AM
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#19
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Rivet Master
2013 27' FB International
El Dorado Hills
, California
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,023
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Salted roads are reason enough to keep my Airstream far away from the snow.
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08-20-2015, 12:26 PM
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#20
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Rivet Master
2012 25' Flying Cloud
Battle Lake
, Minnesota
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,714
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCWDCW
. . . Compare this experience to the Hensley action. When you brake and the trailer tires are not holding back, the hitch off-sets as it moves up on the TV. In that position the rig is one long integrated piece of equipment and the trailer cannot twist. So PPP or Hensley, if your trailer is pushing the TV on ice I think you will not be able to turn. Anyone have different experience? please step in ..I'd like to know for certain) Very few of us like Crisen have M&S tires on the trailer that at least help as long as the trailer is braking a bit ahead of the TV.
This is my understanding ....could be wrong!
JCW
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When you brake the Hensley will not move ahead unless the brake controller is out of adjustment; Airstream pushing the truck, especially on ice, is something you never want when towing at any time. But if the trailer and hitch head did move ahead, you will still have complete steering control with the truck. We do this every time we back our trailer into a camping spot.
Your point about towing your Airstream on salted roads is on the mark. It will initiate a corrosion process on the shell and frame that will continue for years. Unless you live in the desert and it never again gets wet.
__________________
Doug and Cheryl
2012 FC RB, Michelin 16, ProPride 1400
2016 Ram 1500 Laramie Crew Cab 4X4 Ecodiesel 3.92 axles
The Truth is More Important Than the Facts
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