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Old 03-18-2019, 02:09 PM   #43
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Old 03-18-2019, 02:34 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS View Post
oop's... I misspoke in the above post, all axels except the ASs'... whoever built the trailer equipped it with two 3500lb axles and still gave it a GVWR of 7300lb. 🥴
How kool is that?👎

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Andy at Inland once told me that the tongue weight transferred to the TV is factored in when figuring the weight capacity of the axle capacity selection to get to the final weights on the capacity sticker/plate. Wish Andy had a clone of himself to continue at Inland BTW.
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Old 03-18-2019, 04:31 PM   #45
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My trailer weights 6300 when loaded to go. Gross weight is 6800. The axle load when hitched is 5500 lbs. The truck carries 800 lbs of the trailer weight when hitched. All numbers approximate from the 2 times I have done the weighings.

And I have changed my previous opinion. I now think the driver is part of the payload. I think I was confusing something I read about the tow ratings. I think it is okay to have a driver in the car while towing the rated load.
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Old 03-18-2019, 06:30 PM   #46
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For the year my truck was manufactured, I read on page 2 of this>
https://my.chevrolet.com/content/dam...%20Equinox.pdf
It says:
"SELECTING A VEHICLE/MAXIMUM TRAILER WEIGHT RATINGS (lbs.)
The chart below gives you an idea of the maximum amount of weight you can confidently and safely trailer with different Chevrolet models when your vehicle is properly equipped. When determining the total weight of trailer and cargo, include the weight of any additional passengers and optional equipment (driver weight and base equipment are already included). See pages 09–15 for maximum trailer weight ratings by specific model."

The confusion comes from some people misunderstanding this statement. They think is says the drivers weight is included in payload, but it does not say that. It says the weight of the driver is included in the maximum trailer weight rating of the tow vehicle. The math is:
(vehicle curb weight + driver weight + maximum trailer weight = GCWR)

If additional payload is added to the tow vehicle, the maximum trailer weight it will tow is decreased by that same amount, because GCWR should not be exceeded. In this case the math is:
(vehicle curb weight + driver weight + added weight + reduced trailer weight = GCWR)

ps:
Another thing people get confused about: this guide says "properly equipped" the vehicle in the chart will tow the maximum load, but they fail to say that other vehicles of the same type will not tow the maximum weight and carry substantially less weight, because of the way they are equipped.
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Old 03-18-2019, 06:42 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by tbashin View Post
Andy at Inland once told me that the tongue weight transferred to the TV is factored in when figuring the weight capacity of the axle capacity selection to get to the final weights on the capacity sticker/plate. Wish Andy had a clone of himself to continue at Inland BTW.
That is true, for the TV... but don't forget weight is also transferred back to the AS axles... In our case...160lbs which doesn't help.
Even without WD, the AS is over the spec's.

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Old 03-24-2019, 10:05 AM   #48
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I doubt there are many 150 pound drivers today with corpulent America just as there are not many 170 pound passengers (from the FAA regulations) sitting in airliner seats.

And yes, Skinny Willie in a front seat vs Fat Albert could very negatively effect the weight and balance of a small aircraft.

So actual wights of driver and passenger do make a difference to payload (ever seen a Harley with two really obese folks aboard vs two skinny folks......

If it fits is ships does not apply to smaller tow vehicles.
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Old 03-24-2019, 04:31 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Dmmdtm View Post
So FWIW...

........I ended up talking to the tech support line at Chevy (accessed through the Chevy App). They used my Vin to verify. Bottom line was that the base truck weight assumed a 150lb driver and full fluids (to include full gas tank). So anything in addition to that comes out of the available/max payload on the door sticker.


As I researched, I couldn't determine if all manufacturers make this same assumption or not. And frankly the dealer was no help. I think going direct to the manufacturer is your best way to verify.
The 150 lb driver is correct. But it had no relationship to payload, or SAE J2807. It was established by the NHTSA/DOT in formulating CAFE standards in the '70s - it established "curb weight" as the weight of the vehicle with all fluids, a tank of gas, standard equipment like spare and jack, and a 150 lb. "standard driver." It is used by the EPA to determine fuel economy, which includes aero drag coefficient X frontal area, and curb weight.

I am not sure how current regs apply now, but payload used to be the difference between the curb weight, above, and the GVW. I have not seen a change that eliminates the "Standard Driver" from the Curb Weight, and I have looked over the years for a change. So I assume that the 150 lb driver is still included in the Curb Weight.

However, this is kind of irrelevant to the OP's question, because, no matter what is included in the curb weight, the GVW is still the GVW.
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Old 03-24-2019, 04:52 PM   #50
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Spreadsheets for capacities...

See this old thread for spreadsheets that can help you calculate towing capacities. http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...tml#post456088
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Old 03-24-2019, 05:40 PM   #51
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One good thing I've learned on this thread is that I weigh less than the typical American male. I haven't felt so good about my stomach in years. But, what about payload or cargo (same thing)?

Since I spent many decades interpreting words and sentences, it looks to me some of statements above could be interpreted both ways. For example, "I think all agree that actual payload includes everything". Does it include the truck, gas, tires, etc.? Probably not, but what does that mean exactly? Maybe "everything that isn't curb weight, but the rest of stuff you might own". "The driver's weight is not included in payload" means it is included in curb weight? Or does that mean you add it to payload and it counts against it? OK, I'm nitpicking, but when it comes to definitions, it matters.

So what I think is fluids are part of the curb weight, but not the driver, any other people or dogs, cats, snakes or bugs in the truck. I think we can all agree things not in the truck do not matter. Thus, when calculating whether you are going over weight restrictions, add everything together that goes into the truck that didn't come with the truck. Two thirds of tongue weight if you have a weight distributing hitch also must be added to that number. The hitch head too, though I'm not sure about the bars. If you have a 1/2 ton truck, you may be close to or over the cargo/payload capacity. Amputations and a divorce can cut down on cargo weight, though are not usually the best solution. It also means that two obese occupants, a big dog and the tongue weight may be all some 1/2 ton trucks can handle.

Look at the door sticker for the actual cargo weight. What you find in promotional materials or the owners' manual does not account for options. But the door sticker may not have some dealer options if the dealer was sloppy about it. That requires another sticker other than the manufacturer's door sticker. Options you added also tend to weigh something and all those things will reduce cargo weight. Most people stop there. But you are supposed to consider the weight on each axle and the only way to calculate that is to go to a scale.

For everyone who has overloaded a pickup truck (that includes me), yeh, they'll take a lot for a short time, but you may be shortening the life of the suspension, u-joints, transmission, transfer case. I still remember seeing how much a load of cinder block did to my truck—it went right down to those rubber blocks on the frame. I drove home very slowly. That was a long time ago and I have not repeated it. I also have a bigger truck.

As for vehicle salespeople, they are best at happy talk and not so good at knowing technical details about the many different vehicles they sell. Over the years on this Forum, there have been a gazillion reports about lying or ignorant salesmen (do not remember any lying or ignorant saleswomen mentioned). They like to tell you the vehicle they most want to sell you can do anything including space flight if you tell them you have a cottage on Mars. Some of the vehicles have been on the lot for so long they are a liability and may get the salesman a bonus, so they push those even if they bear no relation to what you want or need. Best is to go to a dealer knowing more than the sales people know so you can see if they are lying to you plus make the best choice for yourself.

I used to see a lot of posts saying that you should subtract 20% from all capacities to be safe. I always wondered who came up with that number and how did they calculate it? I thought it was a towing myth and am glad to see it has disappeared. I am not arguing it is not good to be substantially under limits, but the truck are supposedly designed to handle what they claim are the limits. I believe Toyota was the only manufacturer to adopt the SAE definitions released several years ago for calculating weight limits, so I feel somewhat confident on those numbers. Having crawled around under our Tundra, it looks overbuilt—perhaps for the 3/4 ton version they never made. However other brands may inflate their capacities and finding that out requires a lot of research.
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Old 03-24-2019, 06:21 PM   #52
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Hitch hikers do not count against payload if you don't stop.
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Old 03-25-2019, 03:23 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene View Post
***********
So what I think is fluids are part of the curb weight, but not the driver, any other people or dogs, cats, snakes or bugs in the truck. I think we can all agree things not in the truck do not matter. Thus, when calculating whether you are going over weight restrictions, add everything together that goes into the truck that didn't come with the truck. Two thirds of tongue weight if you have a weight distributing hitch also must be added to that number. The hitch head too, though I'm not sure about the bars. If you have a 1/2 ton truck, you may be close to or over the cargo/payload capacity. Amputations and a divorce can cut down on cargo weight, though are not usually the best solution. It also means that two obese occupants, a big dog and the tongue weight may be all some 1/2 ton trucks can handle.
*****************
Look at the door sticker for the actual cargo weight. What you find in promotional materials or the owners' manual does not account for options. But the door sticker may not have some dealer options if the dealer was sloppy about it. That requires another sticker other than the manufacturer's door sticker. Options you added also tend to weigh something and all those things will reduce cargo weight. Most people stop there. But you are supposed to consider the weight on each axle and the only way to calculate that is to go to a scale.
********************
I used to see a lot of posts saying that you should subtract 20% from all capacities to be safe. I always wondered who came up with that number and how did they calculate it? I thought it was a towing myth and am glad to see it has disappeared. I am not arguing it is not good to be substantially under limits, but the truck are supposedly designed to handle what they claim are the limits. I believe Toyota was the only manufacturer to adopt the SAE definitions released several years ago for calculating weight limits, so I feel somewhat confident on those numbers. Having crawled around under our Tundra, it looks overbuilt—perhaps for the 3/4 ton version they never made. However other brands may inflate their capacities and finding that out requires a lot of research.
Toyota was the first to comply with J2807, in 2011. Dodge second, Ford last. All half ton pickups have complied as of 2016 - they were required when they introduced "substantially updated" models. Unfortunately, 3/4 T pickups are not required to comply - in fact, if they declare their towing capacity to be over 14,000 lbs, they are exempt.
Prior to J2807, Ad departments set the tow ratings, not engineers, and it was wise to ignore those wild claims - so the 80% rule of thumb arose. It's now obsolete (except maybe for 3/4T and above).

A standard driver (150lbs) is included in the curb weight. No matter, because as you say, you need to weigh your rig to see what it weighs (!). The amount you are under the GVW (or axle ratings - your choice) is what the TV is designed to carry.

The door pillar sticker is accurate. It's placed by the manufacturer, not the dealer. Dealer (or owner) additions don't affect the manufacturer payload sticker.

You are correct that a WDH distributes some of the tongue weight back to the trailer axles. Exactly how much means a trip to the scales. Or weighing the tongue and doing trigonometry calculations.

Again, whether the driver is or isn't included in the curb weight (it is) doesn't affect the GVW. Whatever - I don't recommend towing without a driver.
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Old 03-26-2019, 04:59 AM   #54
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Plus meaning “with the addition of”, so curb weight and the items listed, added together. What’s the error?
GVWR is a defined term under the FMVSS. It is allowed maximum for the vehicle plus everything you can put in or on it, so that means occupants, fuel, and cargo.

To say GVWR, and then start the next sentence with "it", making it a subject pronoun referring to GVWR, and add "plus" after that, implies that whatever, said plus is, would be added beyond the GVWR value.
Your initial statement made no mention of curb weight, which is exactly what I meant by error.
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Old 03-26-2019, 06:50 AM   #55
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ummm...payload🤔
I load the Burb and stay under the GAWR's.
It is not Rocket Seance here in the Land of the Mugwump's.🤓

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Old 03-26-2019, 06:58 AM   #56
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So the first 150 lbs of the driver is part of the curb weight? So the weight of the driver over the first 150 lbs counts as payload? That actually makes sense.

And if the TV is a pickup it is probably okay not to count the 200 lbs or so that is transferred to the front axle by the WD in the payload? Also makes sense.

Why am I interested in these details? considering dropping back from a 3/4 ton to a half ton if I have to change TV. Looks like it will be fine with my trailer adding 800 lbs to the TV weight when hitched. 1400 lbs or so of payload should be fine.

I wonder where the "payload sensor" is on the new Dodges and if the WD actually removes some of the load from it?
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