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Old 03-15-2019, 04:44 PM   #15
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If I had to fret this much about payload I'd definitely change something...🤔, towing a trailer that can't handle towing a trailer is not my idea of a fun pastime.

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Old 03-15-2019, 04:46 PM   #16
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The issue is the lack of definition of payload.

GVWR is a defined term under the FMVSS. It is allowed maximum for the vehicle plus everything you can put in or on it, so that means occupants, fuel, and cargo.

Curb weight is also a defined term. It is the base vehicle, with all fluids (and nominal fuel level). It doesn't include occupants or cargo.

GVW is the actual weight of your vehicle, as it is configured; it isn't published, it is measured.

Theoretical payload is GVWR - curb weight.
Calculated payload is GVWR - GVW

Now we come to published payloads. They can't exceed the theoretical figure above, but they can be less than it. And they can have conditions attached. Some manufacturers may include no occupants. Other manufacturers may include a 150 lb driver. Some use different conditions depending on which publication you refer to. For example, Ford says a 150 lb driver is included in payload, which seems simple. But for their camper ratings, ie how big a slide in camper can you carry in the bed, they publish cargo limits and include a 150 lb occupant at every seating position. Tow ratings may include 2 150 lb people, because that is what the SAE towing standard calls for.

Other manufacturers reduce published payload because of where the payload will be carried. While the vehicle could theoretically carry more payload, physical restrictions on where it can be carried (eg where the trunk is) may result in a lower published payload than the theoretical payload.

Look at your GVWR sticker. Measure the vehicle with a full tank of fuel. The difference is your effective payload. If you are reading any published payload info, refer to the fine print for the conditions the manufacturer used in determining it.
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Old 03-15-2019, 04:46 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by thewarden View Post
I believe most manufacturer's allow for a 150 lb driver, which is not counted against the payload capacity. I am not sure how they came up with that number. In my case, there are almost 2 drivers, LOL.
I think the 150 lbs for the driver is included in calculating maximum towing capacity, not payload capacity.
I think the math is:
150 lb driver + tow vehicle at curb weight + trailer at max tow rating=GCWR

Any additional payload in/on the tow vehicle detracts from towing capacity. (in other words, if payload/cargo weight is added to the tow vehicle, the tow vehicle's towing capacity is decreased by that same amount, until the total load equals GCWR)
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Old 03-15-2019, 04:56 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by WhereStream View Post
Shopping for a new tow, I'm finding it hard to extract good information and numbers from the dudes on the sales lots.

None so far has ever heard of "payload." Now, I have the salesman send me a photo of the door tag, if I'm not there myself.

But what's included in that payload calculation? Should the weight of the driver be subtracted from that number, along with passengers and gear, or has the automaker already factored that in?

Trust me, if you ever want to baffle a dealer, ask that question.

So with that in mind, let me put the question to the Airstream folks, who understand the issue.

Which manufacturer — Ford, GM, Dodge, Nissan, Toyota — factors in the weight of the driver before establishing a number for payload

Also, what about fuel? Does the manufacturer's payload number factor in a full tank, or do I need to subtract for that as well?

Interesting how payload is considered a key limiting factor ... but the people selling the iron have no idea.
I think anything weighing upon the vehicle, does not matter if it is the driver or rocks, is payload/cargo.

Another way to look at it; The GVWR of any vehicle is what it is. Any weight, regardless of what it is, counts as weight. When the vehicle and load adds up to that GVWR, it does not matter where the load comes from.
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Old 03-15-2019, 06:47 PM   #19
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.. how can payload be anything other than all occupants, cargo, etc.? Some imaginary 150lb. driver? Who came up with that?! Maybe I've been around GM trucks too long but as far as I know GM has always indicated payload includes all occupants. All occupants means the driver too! No theoretical 150 lb. drivers - the actual weight of the driver!
I think all agree that actual payload includes everything. The issue is that some published payload ratings include allowances for certain things, and thus use a net number.
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Old 03-15-2019, 07:40 PM   #20
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I think all agree that actual payload includes everything. The issue is that some published payload ratings include allowances for certain things, and thus use a net number.
For 2019 GM has added VIN specific load specification stickers to the door jam and glovebox. This example I took today from a 2019 GMC Sierra Double cab with the 5.3 and Max Tow package. Click image for larger version

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Old 03-16-2019, 12:04 AM   #21
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From my 2018 F150 owners manual:


Steps for determining the correct load limit:
1. Locate the statement "The combined weight of occupants and cargo should never exceed XXX kg or XXX lb." on your vehicle’s placard.
2. Determine the combined weight of the driver and passengers that will be riding in your vehicle.
3. Subtract the combined weight of the driver and passengers from XXX kg or XXX lb.
4. The resulting figure equals the available amount of cargo and luggage load capacity. For example, if the “XXX” amount equals 1,400 lb. and there will be five 150 lb. passengers in your vehicle, the amount of available cargo and luggage load capacity is 650 lb. (1400-750 (5 x 150) = 650 lb.)
5. Determine the combined weight of luggage and cargo being loaded on the vehicle. That weight may not safely exceed the available cargo and
luggage load capacity calculated in Step 4.
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Old 03-16-2019, 12:36 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by A W Warn View Post
I think the 150 lbs for the driver is included in calculating maximum towing capacity, not payload capacity.
I think the math is:
150 lb driver + tow vehicle at curb weight + trailer at max tow rating=GCWR

Any additional payload in/on the tow vehicle detracts from towing capacity. (in other words, if payload/cargo weight is added to the tow vehicle, the tow vehicle's towing capacity is decreased by that same amount, until the total load equals GCWR)
Hi, Bingo; This is the only correct answer.
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Old 03-16-2019, 01:46 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A W Warn View Post
I think the 150 lbs for the driver is included in calculating maximum towing capacity, not payload capacity.
I think the math is:
150 lb driver + tow vehicle at curb weight + trailer at max tow rating=GCWR

Any additional payload in/on the tow vehicle detracts from towing capacity. (in other words, if payload/cargo weight is added to the tow vehicle, the tow vehicle's towing capacity is decreased by that same amount, until the total load equals GCWR)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBERTSUNRUS View Post
Hi, Bingo; This is the only correct answer.
I respectfully disagree with Robert

If a manufacturer is following SAE J2807 to calculate GCWR, and most are now, then it isn't a 150 driver in the formula; it is (2) 150 lb occupants, plus 100 lbs misc for any vehicle with a GVWR over 8500, plus the hitch equipment. That is as per J2807 201602, published 2016-02-04, the current version.

That applies to the calculation of the tow vehicle manufacturer's published GCWR, but the Federal MC Safety Regulations actually define GCWR, and there are two calculation methods. The first is the tow vehicle manufacturer's published number, as above. The second is the sum of the GVWR of the tow vehicle, plus the GVWR of the trailer(s). This may produce a GCWR higher than the tow vehicle manufacturer's rating, and the federal law says to use the higher of the two methods. They don't consider the tow vehicle manufacturer's published GCWR number to be relevant for safety reasons, although it may be relevant for a tow vehicle manufacturer's liability issues. The SAE disagreed with them, and presented their position, but the SAE doesn't set the laws.

Certainly 390.5 applies to commercial vehicles, and most here aren't commercial operators, but that is what GCWR pertains to. Feel free to opt out if one is not a commercial operator.

Section 390.5, here: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/...ml#seqnum390.5
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Old 03-16-2019, 05:09 AM   #24
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Wow. Glad I’m nowhere near the limits for my truck. If I had to worry about whether the windshield washer was full I’d get something more substantial to tow with.

Anyway, if you’re off by the weight of the driver the wheels aren’t going to suddenly fall off.
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Old 03-16-2019, 06:33 AM   #25
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GVWR is a defined term under the FMVSS. It is allowed maximum for the vehicle plus everything you can put in or on it, so that means occupants, fuel, and cargo.
Just to clarify, I believe the word "plus" was used in error.
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Old 03-16-2019, 07:09 AM   #26
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An opinion that Ford already assumes the vehicle has a 150lb driver who does not need to be factored into your payload calculation contradicts with the FACT that on the 2017 Ford F-250/350/450/550 manual page 263: “Determine the combined weight of the driver and passengers that will be riding in the vehicle. subtract the combined weight of the driver and passengers...”

They do give and EXAMPLE of 5 150# passengers which of course has nothing to do with your actual calculation.

At least on a 2017 Ford F-250/350/450/550, no “gift” of an extra 150# in a payload capacity exists.
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Old 03-16-2019, 07:20 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Countryboy59 View Post
Wow. Glad I’m nowhere near the limits for my truck. If I had to worry about whether the windshield washer was full I’d get something more substantial to tow with.

Anyway, if you’re off by the weight of the driver the wheels aren’t going to suddenly fall off.
😂 Worrying...it's an important part rationalizing marginal towing. You can always leave the wife & kids home.🥴

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Old 03-16-2019, 07:29 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Countryboy59 View Post
Wow. Glad I’m nowhere near the limits for my truck. If I had to worry about whether the windshield washer was full I’d get something more substantial to tow with.

Anyway, if you’re off by the weight of the driver the wheels aren’t going to suddenly fall off.
I remember one time i had a load of broken concrete in the back of my 1/2 ton GMC. The max allowable payload, by the door sticker, was 1500 lbs. When I got to the dump scales the load weighed in at 3050 lbs. The truck survived.
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