Payload? So why not add a leaf?

[turk123]

Originally Posted by silverhio

The springs do one thing: suspend the truck body above the truck frame.
Adding stiffer springs will allow you to keep the body suspended above the frame in your desired neutral position (same ride height).
Springs will not increase your weight carrying capacity other than keeping the ride height the same.
With the right springs you would be able to put 30,000 lbs in your bed and still have the truck sit at a normal height, yet the truck would be destroyed pretty quick when you drive it.
Increasing the spring capacity works great, but ONLY within the parameters of the ability of the rest of the truck to carry the weight.
Do match springs for the weight you are going to carry.
Do Not overload the truck.

You can also remove all 4 springs and put in solid steel spacers. In theory this would allow you to add unlimited amount of weight and the truck would maintain the same ride height.
This would not increase your weight carrying capacity.

Don't confuse suspension with capacity.

Good point, but Ford is telling me the F-350 is a 250 with the extra leaf. Other differences are the ability to become a dually, options and electronic changes.

My F-250 with no weight distribution and moderate items in the bed will sag and the front wheel well spacing it over 2 inches higher than the rear. The weight distribution hitch will bring it back to level, with about 6 1/2" on the ProPride towers. That is not a lot but is substantial (9" being the highest setting). It puts even more weight on the front that is as some have mentioned here, too much.

You are saying to me the extra leaf spring will not increase my weight carrying capacity? I actually tend to agree with that statement.

I just want to bring the back of the truck up to start with before adding weight distribution. The 900-pound trailer, the 400 lbs from cap and bedside, and then there is the little matter of the 270-pound ProPride hitch, has the truck rear sagging. It needs a boost. I am not trying to add payload. I've actually reduced my weight since the last cat scale weigh.

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by turk123

Good point, but Ford is telling me the F-350 is a 250 with the extra leaf. Other differences are the ability to become a dually, options and electronic changes.

My F-250 with no weight distribution and moderate items in the bed will sag and the front wheel well spacing it over 2 inches higher than the rear. The weight distribution hitch will bring it back to level, with about 6 1/2" on the ProPride towers. That is not a lot but is substantial (9" being the highest setting). It puts even more weight on the front that is as some have mentioned here, too much.

You are saying to me the extra leaf spring will not increase my weight carrying capacity? I actually tend to agree with that statement.

I just want to bring the back of the truck up to start with before adding weight distribution. The 900-pound trailer, the 400 lbs from cap and bedside, and then there is the little matter of the 270-pound ProPride hitch, has the truck rear sagging. It needs a boost. I am not trying to add payload. I've actually reduced my weight since the last cat scale weigh.

I believe you may be approaching the WD the wrong way.
It is NOT just WD that will affect how level your truck will be when set properly.
If you use the proper drop stinger you should be able to get a level rig WITH the proper WD set.
Level the AS, measure the coupler height and get a drop stinger that is the same height when un-hitched. Hitch-up and restore the FA weight.
It is not required that the TV be perfectly level...more important the AS.

Bob
🇺🇸

[Maxroadster]

Question: What about side-wall flex when adding the extra leaf spring? Most F350s are in dually configuration while a few are single rear wheel configuration. The dually would seem to provide more tire side-wall resistance as opposed to the single rear wheel systems. I am looking at the idea of a single rear wheel F250 with the extra leaf spring carrying increased payloads but no additional sway resistance. Anyone?

[wayoutwanderer]

Ironically, anything you add to suspension to help handle the extra weight technically lowers your payload capacity, since all those goodies now get factored into your total vehicle weight.

I've been running into similar problems with a 27' Serenity on my Tundra. I only wish I had that 2100# payload. I think I'm dealing with something around 1540.

Airbags were recommended and I had them ordered, but I saw a video put out by Fastway explaining how airbags work against the weight distribution...pretty much in the same way as your trailer tongue jack. Lifting the back means potentially lifting weight off my E4 bars and decreasing sway control. I'm only mildly familiar with how the Pro Pride hitch handles sway so that may be a moot point.

I may be looking at a leaf replacement, but in the meantime I opted for Timbrens as a pretty economical alternative to bags. Super easy to install and around $200. They only engage when loaded so they don't affect your daily drive. There's no maintenance and a lifetime warranty. They do seem to do a pretty good job keeping things level under load. We'll see how they handle on the next trip with the 'stream.

Edit: I have no idea why that last photo is upside down on this site.

[turk123]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

I believe you may be approaching the WD the wrong way.
It is NOT just WD that will affect how level your truck will be when set properly.
If you use the proper drop stinger you should be able to get a level rig WITH the proper WD set.
Level the AS, measure the coupler height and get a drop stinger that is the same height when un-hitched. Hitch-up and restore the FA weight.
It is not required that the TV be perfectly level...more important the AS.

Bob
🇺🇸

Hi Bob

I understand what you are saying. I spent a lot of time getting my rig balanced and running level. This picture shows what I've achieved.

I am just running the bars pretty tight and am getting a slight porpoising with the current settings. I'm not sure what I feel, but the rear end of the truck just does not seem as stable as it should be. I wish I could get you to drive it and compare what you feel. I could be all wrong on this, but I am hoping the added leaf spring will tighten up the rear and let me back off on the weight distribution. I am adding the Sulastic shocks also to smooth out any stiffness I get from the leaf springs. I admit all of this may be unnecessary and I should just leave well enough alone, but that's not any fun. I could be on to something or I could be putting all this in the classifieds on Monday.

Since I corrected the yolk problem with the ProPride hitch (another thread), the trailer pulls great and I can reach my 65 MPH top speed I like for long straight stretches. The trailer runs straight as an arrow. Trips are now enjoyable where before I was struggling with a "shaking sway" I could not get rid of. I just feel like the rear of the truck is "loose". Maybe it's all in my head!

The parts are on the way and I have a very qualified auto shop waiting for me to bring it over. They agree with my decision to add a leaf. They have done this many times before for some of their customers that pull trailers with their restored cars. They never heard of Sulastic!!!

[silverhio]

Huge typo. I meant frame:axles, not body:frame.
changes below…

Originally Posted by silverhio

The springs do one thing: suspend the truck frame above the truck axle.
Adding stiffer springs will allow you to keep the frame suspended above the axle in your desired neutral position (same ride height).
Springs will not increase your weight carrying capacity other than keeping the ride height the same.
With the right springs you would be able to put 30,000 lbs in your bed and still have the truck sit at a normal height, yet the truck would be destroyed pretty quick when you drive it.
Increasing the spring capacity works great, but ONLY within the parameters of the ability of the rest of the truck to carry the weight.
Do match springs for the weight you are going to carry.
Do Not overload the truck.

You can also remove all 4 springs and put in solid steel spacers. In theory this would allow you to add unlimited amount of weight and the truck would maintain the same ride height.
This would not increase your weight carrying capacity.

Don't confuse suspension with capacity.

[silverhio]

Originally Posted by wayoutwanderer

Ironically, anything you add to suspension to help handle the extra weight technically lowers your payload capacity, since all those goodies now get factored into your total vehicle weight.
…

Airbags were recommended and I had them ordered, but I saw a video put out by Fastway explaining how airbags work against the weight distribution...pretty much in the same way as your trailer tongue jack. Lifting the back means potentially lifting weight off my E4 bars and decreasing sway control. I'm only mildly familiar with how the Pro Pride hitch handles sway so that may be a moot point.
…

How would airbags interfere with WD?
The airbags increase the spring strength. WD would not know the difference of stronger springs or a combo of weak springs with airbag supplement. In the end the frame is sitting on a spring (or a combo of springs) which suspends the frame above the axle….

Airbags WILL negate the WD hitch if that is what you mean. Less weight will need to be redistributed off the hitch if the rear truck springs are adequate and adjusted properly for the given payload (includes hitch weight).
There is no mysterious magic that happens by adding bags. They simply help the springs do their job, nothing else.
If you are wanting to distribute the weight more evenly to the front of the truck off the rear, then do not put adequate springs on the truck, let the WD be your spring. Either new heavy springs or bag supplement will support the trailer, so trying to unload the rear will unload the rear springs and then they will have less weight on them than they are intended for, the truck might sit high in the rear…
I think I would rather have an adequate truck and then use WD hitch as necessary from there

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by silverhio

How would airbags interfere with WD?
The airbags increase the spring strength. WD would not know the difference of stronger springs or a combo of weak springs with airbag supplement. In the end the frame is sitting on a spring (or a combo of springs) which suspends the frame above the axle….

Airbags WILL negate the WD hitch if that is what you mean. Less weight will need to be redistributed off the hitch if the rear truck springs are adequate and adjusted properly for the given payload (includes hitch weight).
There is no mysterious magic that happens by adding bags. They simply help the springs do their job, nothing else.
If you are wanting to distribute the weight more evenly to the front of the truck off the rear, then do not put adequate springs on the truck, let the WD be your spring. Either new heavy springs or bag supplement will support the trailer, so trying to unload the rear will unload the rear springs and then they will have less weight on them than they are intended for, the truck might sit high in the rear…
I think I would rather have an adequate truck and then use WD hitch as necessary from there

A WD hitch transfers weight differently, it lifts thru torsion, not only moving weight forward but resisting trailer nosedive when breaking. Plus the correct spec bars promote a softer ride.
Airbags prevent the rear end squat
WD resists it, moving weight forward.

But TETO...Go for it if it pleases you.🤓
Bob
🇺🇸

[wayoutwanderer]

Originally Posted by silverhio

How would airbags interfere with WD?
The airbags increase the spring strength. WD would not know the difference of stronger springs or a combo of weak springs with airbag supplement. In the end the frame is sitting on a spring (or a combo of springs) which suspends the frame above the axle….

Airbags WILL negate the WD hitch if that is what you mean. Less weight will need to be redistributed off the hitch if the rear truck springs are adequate and adjusted properly for the given payload (includes hitch weight).
There is no mysterious magic that happens by adding bags. They simply help the springs do their job, nothing else.
If you are wanting to distribute the weight more evenly to the front of the truck off the rear, then do not put adequate springs on the truck, let the WD be your spring. Either new heavy springs or bag supplement will support the trailer, so trying to unload the rear will unload the rear springs and then they will have less weight on them than they are intended for, the truck might sit high in the rear…
I think I would rather have an adequate truck and then use WD hitch as necessary from there

The airbags act pretty much as a fulcrum. Without tongue weight behind the axle they support the load well. This is why airbags work very well with a 5th-wheel hitch, since the load is directly over the axle. So imagine having a fulcrum and lever...what happens when you raise the fulcrum? Depending on the tongue weight it will either lift weight off the front wheels, causing understeer, or lift friction from the sway bars, causing sway.

If you use airbags with a hitch mount trailer, you need set it level with the bags first, then adjust the hitch. After that you have to be very careful to mark the exact height of the rear wells at level and never exceed it. Most people would just eyeball it and may not realize that tiny bit of excess air means a worse experience on either the front end or the back.

Watch this if my gibberish isn't making sense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBZu39pQ8Gg

[Profxd]

The job of a WDH is to transfer weight, not to level the rig. Take some tension off the WDH and don’t worry about being level and at least test drive it in this state. These trucks are designed to take weight on the rear

[ROBERT CROSS]

Don't worry within reason...AS nose down an inch or two is ok on some, rigs...Not all. Nose up...never good.

Bob
🇺🇸

[franklyfrank]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

A WD hitch transfers weight differently, it lifts thru torsion, not only moving weight forward but resisting trailer nosedive when breaking. Plus the correct spec bars promote a softer ride.
Airbags prevent the rear end squat
WD resists it, moving weight forward.

But TETO...Go for it if it pleases you.🤓
Bob
🇺🇸

FWIW,

I installed a set of Airbags on my previous TV a F-150 EB trying to up the payload capacity and being able to better level the TV.
After the frst trip out I couldn't remove them fast enough.
I ended up with the most unstable ride ever.
With the WD set and the Airbags pumped up to level the truck the weight was effectively lifted up of the rear springs and the entire rear end of the truck was teetering on the airbag. I wouldn't recommend it.
The final common sense solution to my anemic payload problem was trading the F-150 for a F-250.

[silverhio]

Sorry, Robert Cross, lol. A WDH is not a torsion spring! Nor does it act like a torsion spring. It is a spring that acts much more like a leaf spring because most of them are basically one leaf. It bends, not twist, under load.
The difference in a WDH spring is its location. The front of the spring is based in front of the hitch (on the truck side) and the back is behind the hitch (on trailer side).
The spring is trying to lift the connection of the truck and trailer, to bend upward at the ball.
The effect is to unweight the rear of the truck.
If you attached a winch to the front axle of the truck and one to the trailer axle and pulled there would be the same effect (you just would not be able to make turns this way). This would be trying to bend the truck/trailer upward also at the ball.
It is a good solution to maintain ride height and to keep all the weight from the rear tires.
It is a great solution for a loaded down truck then trying to load on the weight of a trailer tongue. Truck Camper guys know this.
For just a trailer tongue, which may not be a significant amount of weight for the truck, then air bags or other spring-strengthening systems are good, and work 100% the same no matter the angle of the truck to the trailer as in dips or over bumps. Many times the extra weight of the trailer is nothing to the truck, tires or other components; just the spring sag, which the bags fix easily and the truck is perfectly happy.
If trailer sway is a concern then WDH has effect but in no way should complicate the discussion on springs as that is another topic altogether.
I saw that video before and came away as those guys are bafoons. They know a lot, but also made a lot of typical false claims, close, but not close enough. They are not the experts.

[franklyfrank]

Originally Posted by silverhio

How would airbags interfere with WD?
The airbags increase the spring strength. WD would not know the difference of stronger springs or a combo of weak springs with airbag supplement. In the end the frame is sitting on a spring (or a combo of springs) which suspends the frame above the axle….

Airbags WILL negate the WD hitch if that is what you mean. Less weight will need to be redistributed off the hitch if the rear truck springs are adequate and adjusted properly for the given payload (includes hitch weight).
There is no mysterious magic that happens by adding bags. They simply help the springs do their job, nothing else.
If you are wanting to distribute the weight more evenly to the front of the truck off the rear, then do not put adequate springs on the truck, let the WD be your spring. Either new heavy springs or bag supplement will support the trailer, so trying to unload the rear will unload the rear springs and then they will have less weight on them than they are intended for, the truck might sit high in the rear…
I think I would rather have an adequate truck and then use WD hitch as necessary from there

The Aibags cancel the suspension and you will end up with a white knuckle ride.

[wayoutwanderer]

Originally Posted by silverhio

I saw that video before and came away as those guys are bafoons. They know a lot, but also made a lot of typical false claims, close, but not close enough. They are not the experts.

...says another "some guy on the internet". While I'm sure they have that scenario best set up to advertise their product, the concept they demonstrate is pretty obvious. If you fail to see the logic in how lifting something in the middle takes weight off either end and transfers more of the overall weight to the middle axle, then I'm not sure what to tell you.

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by silverhio

Sorry, Robert Cross, lol. They are not the experts.

silverhio lol

....And neither are we, you should read the post again, I did not say it was a 'torsion' spring.
Torsion....the extent to which a curve departs from being planar.
BTW, no need to be sorry... 😂


Bob
🇺🇸

[turk123]

Well, my parts are in and I'll be taking it over on the 14th of this month. I've measured the height of my stinger to the ground and will have to adjust downward if the new spring adds 1 1/2" to the rear height. I've been told it might add 2" until it breaks in.

[ROBERT CROSS]

Remember though that what you are doing alone does not increase payload, axle ratings and tires, along with drivetrain have much more influence.
You can go to the gym and pump iron, but if the bones are weak you won't gain much.
Less compliant suspension=harsher ride, not the best for the AS.

POI...the best suspension 'upgrade' for our previous 2500 Burb, IAS Shocks from Edelbrock. 👍

Bob
🇺🇸

[turk123]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

Remember though that what you are doing alone does not increase payload, axle ratings and tires, along with drivetrain have much more influence.
You can go to the gym and pump iron, but if the bones are weak you won't gain much.
Less compliant suspension=harsher ride, not the best for the AS.

POI...the best suspension 'upgrade' for our previous 2500 Burb, IAS Shocks from Edelbrock. 👍

Bob
🇺🇸

Oh, I understand. It is a legal thing.

I am within the limits now but on the high side. The objective is NOT to gain payload although this is how the 350 gets more payload. I have eliminated carrying as many items as the last cat scale reading shows.

I recently saw a YouTube video on the differences in the 250 / 350 / 450 / 750. It reaffirmed the Ford 350 is a 250 with an extra leaf. No changes at all to the frame or other items like brakes or axels. The 450 is where all the changes get made. The frame is the same but added stiffeners and a beefier cross bracing. Larger tires and brakes. Wider front axel. Both axels are also much larger and housed in a second tube. Gearing is all different also or has other option available.

The 750? Well, let's just put the Airstream in its dump bed.

I just found the link to the video. The title does not reflect the 250, but he talks about it.

https://youtu.be/dgeH-6ej09w

[turk123]

I guess my logic is that most F-350 owners I've heard here on the forum, seldom notice the difference in the ride of a 250 / 350. Mine will have the Sulastic shocks that the F-350 does not have that should improve the ride even more.

Well, that's my thinking anyway.