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06-18-2016, 10:41 AM
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#1
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Stay CazuaL
2018 25' Flying Cloud
2014 19' Flying Cloud
Reseda
, California
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 958
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Out of control sway
Yesterday, June 17, 2016 I nearly had a catastrophic accident. I started driving with my 2014 Cloud 19 from home to BigBear, all has been good for the past 1.5 hours. Then all of the sudden, I started to sway. I ease off on the gas, but I can still feel a sway. I noticed before leaving home, that when I added my bikes in the back, my tongue was slightly higher than normal.
So after this first sway, I lowed it to one hang instead of two hang. Oh my gosh, at 50mph, it was BAD! Swaying half way through both sides of the lane. Very very scary to say the least.
So we pulled over once more. This time, I put three of the four bikes inside. And left it at two hang. All was good all the way to BigBear safe and sound.
I have never experienced this before because I have always brought my two Yahama 2000 gens and put them under the front dining table which countered the weight I guess. However, on this trip to BigBear since it was a full hookup, I didn't bring the two gens.
My question is, will it be better if I do a three hang? Or my weight in the back is just too much?
I would love an answer by June 19 since I am leaving June 20th.
Much appreciated.
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06-18-2016, 10:53 AM
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#2
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Rivet Master
2014 20' Flying Cloud
Sag Harbor
, New York
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 17,523
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I think you have answered your own question. On a smaller trailer like yours, adding all that weight WAY behind the center of gravity (front-to-back) -- without the gens inside -- really changes the center of gravity.
Could your water and holding tanks have been another factor to consider in the before-and-after picture? Not sure where yours are located, but our fresh water tank is right at the stern of the trailer. If we add a bike rack and bikes to our FC20, I have heard that we should travel without much fresh water back there.
Also, does your tow vehicle have its own sway control, and what weight distribution and sway control set up do you have on the trailer, if any? Could they have played a role here?
Glad you are OK, but if you have towed without sway before, you can probably adjust for this.
Good luck,
Peter
PS -- Welcome to the forum, and please wait for more expert opinions than mine to come along . . .
PS2 -- You might consider weighing the four bikes, and figure out the center of gravity for that mass on its own, which was located roughly 10 feet behind the trailer's center of gravity. That is a huge weight to put on the end of the pendulum. You might also want to load the four bikes on the trailer, then weigh the actual tongue weight of the trailer. Bet it changes to something outside of the design parameters for the trailer (and the WD/SC hitch if applicable).
I would also recommend checking all your tire pressures, especially the tow vehicle. Also weighing your entire rig carefully, as you may be overloading it with things like the 2 2000 gens inside. Small trailers like ours aren't really rated to hold a lot, and are easy to overload, increasing safety concerns like sway, and stopping ability.
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06-18-2016, 11:24 AM
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#3
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Rivet Master
1991 34' Excella
Princeton
, New Jersey
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 7,070
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If you are in a sway situation you want to apply the manual trailer brake and hold the throttle position or accelerate slightly. This causes the combination to straighten while the trailer is pulled back into alignment by the trailer brakes. Do not apply the TV brakes.
If you are playing with the number of chain links that tells me the hitch was never set up correctly. That is a lengthily process but once completed there should not be a reason to change the chain lengths from time to time.
Not sure you can set the hitch up while on the road but PM me when you are home and I will try and help.
__________________
WBCCI 12156 AIR 3144 WACHUNG TAC NJ6
2004 Excursion 4x4
1991 34 ft. Excella +220,000 miles, new laminated flooring, new upholstery, new 3200 lbs axles
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06-18-2016, 01:42 PM
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#4
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4 Rivet Member
1991 25' Excella
Stanfield
, Oregon
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 317
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You really need to check your tongue weight after changing your load. It should always be at least 10% anyless and it well sway.
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06-18-2016, 04:19 PM
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#5
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Rivet Master
2012 25' FB Eddie Bauer
Vintage Kin Owner
Virginia Beach
, Virginia
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,801
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Thank goodness you didn't wreck! Glad you at least partly figured out what the problem was - and you've gotten some very good advice from the prior posters. Be safe, be happy!
Paula
__________________
Today is a gift, that's why they call it the present.
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06-18-2016, 05:26 PM
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#6
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Rivet Master
2002 19' Bambi
Lafayette
, California
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,554
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Assuming Airstream has not changed the location of the fresh water tank in the 19', it is beneath the dinette seat at the left front of the trailer. Having it full can help distribute weight to the hitch.
For our 19', we have always had a Hensley hitch which many consider overkill for such a short trailer, but we have never experienced any sway. So, if you are not using a hitch with anti-sway properties (doesn't have to be a Hensley or Propride), you have now found a good reason to obtain one.
Tim
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06-18-2016, 05:54 PM
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#7
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Maniacal Engineer
1971 25' Tradewind
Lopez Island
, Washington
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,244
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Use a Sherline tongue weight scale to make sure that 10% of the weight is on the hitch. The fanciest hitch in the world will not fix a mis-balanced trailer.
Check where your gray & black tanks are... if you drain the fresh water tank and fill the black and gray, you may well substantially affect the weight distribution on the trailer.
- Bart
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06-18-2016, 06:43 PM
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#8
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Retired.
Currently Looking...
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, At Large
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 21,276
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Just an FYI for owners of newer tow vehicles:
Some vehicle manufacturers have configured the electronic throttle settings to drop to idle whenthe trailer or even truck brakes are applied. While this will certainly help fuel mileage, it's not so great for recovering from sway.
So, it's a good idea to try applying the trailer brakes and stepping on the gas pedal at a low speed to see if your tow vehicle is one of those affected.
__________________
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup.
Terry
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06-18-2016, 09:32 PM
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#9
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Rivet Master
2012 25' Flying Cloud
Battle Lake
, Minnesota
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,714
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The problem is the 4-bicycle rack, the bikes mounted well behind the bumper on that receiver the stupid dealer welded to your frame. Too much rear weight, too far behind the trailer, with no upper support. Your Airstream Owners manual warns against such weight in this position.
This could be compounded by heavy items stored in rear compartments.
It's about good loading procedure, lighter items at the ends of the Airstream, heavy items near the axle. Offsetting heavy rear loads with heavy front loads makes an unstable trailer, don't do it.
Your hitch setup is probably okay, at least not the source of the problem.
__________________
Doug and Cheryl
2012 FC RB, Michelin 16, ProPride 1400
2016 Ram 1500 Laramie Crew Cab 4X4 Ecodiesel 3.92 axles
The Truth is More Important Than the Facts
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06-18-2016, 10:33 PM
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#10
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Stay CazuaL
2018 25' Flying Cloud
2014 19' Flying Cloud
Reseda
, California
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 958
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Team, thank you. Lots of good advice.
I wanted to know will playing with chain hang count have any effect to my weight problem now. I can't do much other than putting my bikes in the trailer on the way back home.
The wife doesn't want me to experiment. But will going to three hang instead of two help if I had all four bikes in the back?
The FC19 fresh water is in the bow port side.
I appreciate the tip on all the weight stuff. I should have known.
I'm trying to see if the three hang will help. I would prefer not to have to bring gens as counter weight, but will do if I have to.
I have the EazyLift with sway bar, but bent the ball mount by the TV on my first few trips. Yes I know, rookie mistake. I never thought I would ever need it. I'm gonna have it bend straight and buy another away bar to replace it.
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06-18-2016, 11:23 PM
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#11
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4 Rivet Member
houston
, Texas
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cazual6
Team, thank you. Lots of good advice.
I wanted to know will playing with chain hang count have any effect to my weight problem now. I can't do much other than putting my bikes in the trailer on the way back home.
The wife doesn't want me to experiment. But will going to three hang instead of two help if I had all four bikes in the back?
The FC19 fresh water is in the bow port side.
I appreciate the tip on all the weight stuff. I should have known.
I'm trying to see if the three hang will help. I would prefer not to have to bring gens as counter weight, but will do if I have to.
I have the EazyLift with sway bar, but bent the ball mount by the TV on my first few trips. Yes I know, rookie mistake. I never thought I would ever need it. I'm gonna have it bend straight and buy another away bar to replace it.
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Did you back up with the sway bar on?
Just so others know and can be helped by the thread too.. what's the tow vehicle?
__________________
'15 27fb Signature
'12 Chevy 2500HD Gasser
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06-19-2016, 03:23 AM
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#12
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Rivet Master
2014 20' Flying Cloud
Sag Harbor
, New York
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 17,523
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cazual6
. . .
I appreciate the tip on all the weight stuff. I should have known.
I'm trying to see if the three hang will help. I would prefer not to have to bring gens as counter weight, but will do if I have to.
. . .
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At the risk of being inappropriately blunt, it appears that you may have an overloading situation, and may be putting you and your family's lives at risk.
A trip to the truck scales to weigh your rig fully loaded would be a good investment, with all the bikes loaded on the back, the two generators inside, all humans and canines on board with all their food/gear. Tanks full. The tongue weight should also be determined.
As dkottum touched on, your owner's manual and VIN ID plate have various weight limits to obey, as do the tires on your single-axle trailer. If you are exceeding any of the limits, serious injury or death might occur, and stubborn insistence on continuing with old habits is not in your best interests.
If multiple weight and loading limits are being exceeded, all the worse . . .
Please consider changing things before someone gets hurt!
Good luck,
Peter
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06-19-2016, 05:24 AM
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#13
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Rivet Master
2012 27' Flying Cloud
W
, New England
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,402
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Out of control sway
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plasma800
Snip...
what's the tow vehicle?
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The OP's profile says Chevy Traverse which is an SUV that claims a 2000# towing capacity. (On edit: apologies, 2000-5000 depending on configuration...).
Cazual - glad you survived this sway incident, it certainly could have been much much worse for you, your family and others on the road. I think you need some help thinking through your entire setup from tow vehicle to hitch to trailer loaded for travel and, forgive me if this is offensive, but that bike hitch mod you posted about in a different thread is just plain dangerous in and of itself. I know some will say it's no big deal but a couple hundred pounds hanging off the far end of a lever - magnified on every bounce - is simply not safe.
I forgot in your profile where you live (sorry...I remembered the tow vehicle but not your location 😕 but I would recommend seeking out a local WBCCI chapter to get some insight and advice from other AS owners on your setup. When the components are right and set up properly, it's a great experience and you'll have years of great memories. Good luck and happy, safe camping!!
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06-19-2016, 05:29 AM
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#14
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Vintage Kin
Fort Worth
, Texas
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,014
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Out of control sway
Search on finding bathroom scale method of weighing tongue.
Can also drop jack foot on Cat Scale Pad and figure from percentage of length.
A Sherline Gauge is also a good tool. Just like a dedicated use quality torque wrench for the wheel lug nuts and a Longacre tire pressure gauge.
Search also the Three Pass method of using a scale to determine setting WD hitch. I linked a chart by contributor "Ron Gratz" to this forum some years ago (so also search for it under that name).
It would be best to start from scratch on setting the WDH.
TW is always to be between 10-15% of travel trailer weight, and consider 12.5% as an ideal. Higher is better, generally, but the benefit curve falls off at 15% given that TW becomes a little too high for both vehicles to manage via WD.
What I learned nearly fifty years ago in regards trailer sway was to give the TV full throttle while hand-applying the trailer brakes to maximum. This deserves practice.
Also, one needs to know at what speed the trailer brakes will lock the tires on gravel, etc. Learn the range of the trailer brake control.
I'd keep TT tires at maximum sidewall pressure.
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06-19-2016, 06:48 AM
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#15
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2 Rivet Member
Levelland
, Texas
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 24
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sway control
Quote:
Originally Posted by cazual6
Yesterday, June 17, 2016 I nearly had a catastrophic accident. I started driving with my 2014 Cloud 19 from home to BigBear, all has been good for the past 1.5 hours. Then all of the sudden, I started to sway. I ease off on the gas, but I can still feel a sway. I noticed before leaving home, that when I added my bikes in the back, my tongue was slightly higher than normal.
So after this first sway, I lowed it to one hang instead of two hang. Oh my gosh, at 50mph, it was BAD! Swaying half way through both sides of the lane. Very very scary to say the least.
So we pulled over once more. This time, I put three of the four bikes inside. And left it at two hang. All was good all the way to BigBear safe and sound.
I have never experienced this before because I have always brought my two Yahama 2000 gens and put them under the front dining table which countered the weight I guess. However, on this trip to BigBear since it was a full hookup, I didn't bring the two gens.
My question is, will it be better if I do a three hang? Or my weight in the back is just too much?
I would love an answer by June 19 since I am leaving June 20th.
Much appreciated.
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If you get sway do not let up on gas pedal or touch yor brakes.tap your trailer brake control this will take out the slack and help stop the sway.been there done that.
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06-19-2016, 06:53 AM
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#16
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Rivet Master
South East
, Michigan
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 546
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slowmover
Search on finding bathroom scale method of weighing tongue.
Can also drop jack foot on Cat Scale Pad and figure from percentage of length.
Search also the Three Pass method of using a scale to determine setting WD hitch.
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The following PDF from Goodyear Tire is a useful manual on the care and feeding of RV tires. It also fully explains the 3 pass method of weighing your rig.
http://www.goodyearrvtires.com/pdfs/tire-care-guide.pdf
Al
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06-19-2016, 08:04 AM
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#17
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4 Rivet Member
2009 25' FB Flying Cloud
1973 31' Sovereign
Mt Angel
, Oregon
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cazual6
Team, thank you. Lots of good advice.
I wanted to know will playing with chain hang count have any effect to my weight problem now. I can't do much other than putting my bikes in the trailer on the way back home.
But will going to three hang instead of two help if I had all four bikes in the back?
I'm trying to see if the three hang will help. I would prefer not to have to bring gens as counter weight, but will do if I have to.
.
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IMOP, increasing the chain link hang count is not an appropriate solution for two reasons.
#1 You have a too-light tongue weight problem. Increasing the number of hanging links does not solve the moving-mass physics problem you already have.
#2 Running with too short a chain length will cause your hitch to fight itself when you make a sharp turn. When the chain length is too short the bar and chain on the outside of a turn stretch tight. Hook up your trailer with three links dangling in an empty parking lot, hang a sharp turn, stop mid turn, and look at your hitch. You will see the outside bar and chain are stretched tight with three links dangling.
You need to load your trailer differently to keep more weight on the tongue. The best strategy for controlling sway is to have a properly weighted tow vehicle/trailer combination. Can you possibly carry a couple bikes above the propane tanks on the tongue? (Another reason for avoiding 4 bikes on the rear is that Airstream trailers do not have the frame strength to carry significant additional weight behind the axles. Extra weight on the rear increases the chance you will develop the dreaded rear bumper separation on your trailer.)
Another strategy is to make sure the tow vehicle tires are fully inflated. When under-inflated the tires are squashy--much easier for the tongue of the trailer to push laterally. You can test this physical principal with a wheel barrow that has a pneumatic tire. Deflate the tire until it still holds its shape but has almost no air pressure. Push the front of the wheel barrow sideways. The wheel barrow will move sideways before the tire starts sliding on the ground won't it? Now inflate the tire to recommended pressure and repeat. How much deflection sideways do you have with the fully inflated tire?
But the main reason I wrote all this is your language quoted above. Fiddling with the chain links does not overcome the physics of your situation. You have to insure adequate tongue weight. Proper tire pressure helps to manage sway, but proper tongue weighting is the key to success.
And may you happily Airstream ever after.
__________________
Best, Burnside
"To err is human, to air is devine."
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06-19-2016, 08:08 AM
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#18
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Rivet Master
2012 25' Flying Cloud
Battle Lake
, Minnesota
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,714
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Very, very dangerous load that cannot be corrected with weight distribution, because the excess load is on the back, not the front.
It cannot be safely corrected with loading the front to balance it either, it may seem so but the overloaded ends of the trailer will have a moving pendulum effect that is very difficult to bring under control when, sooner or later, you have to.
That receiver welded to the back with four bikes dangling out there has to go. Start with removing the bikes before towing again.
__________________
Doug and Cheryl
2012 FC RB, Michelin 16, ProPride 1400
2016 Ram 1500 Laramie Crew Cab 4X4 Ecodiesel 3.92 axles
The Truth is More Important Than the Facts
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06-19-2016, 08:43 AM
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#19
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Rivet Master
2007 25' International CCD FB
Northridge
, California
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 516
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Sent you a PM
LilNomad
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06-19-2016, 09:53 AM
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#20
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Rivet Master
1991 34' Excella
Princeton
, New Jersey
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 7,070
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cazual6
I have the EazyLift with sway bar, but bent the ball mount by the TV on my first few trips. Yes I know, rookie mistake. I never thought I would ever need it. I'm gonna have it bend straight and buy another away bar to replace it.
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Please post a picture of your hitch. Bent components and random adjustments to the chain count are going to have a much greater effect on your rig than 4 bikes on the back. 4 bikes are should be just over 100 lbs. If you assume a 60/40 ratio between the lengths of the tongue to axle and axle to rear of the trailer the bike only have a negative 40 lbs effect on the tongue weight. Not enough to be the single cause of the problem if the original tongue weight of the trailer was between the 10 and 12% design standard and the WD hitch was set up correctly.
It would also be very helpful if you could give us scale weights of the TV alone and the combination as you would normally b set up for towing.
__________________
WBCCI 12156 AIR 3144 WACHUNG TAC NJ6
2004 Excursion 4x4
1991 34 ft. Excella +220,000 miles, new laminated flooring, new upholstery, new 3200 lbs axles
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