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Old 06-25-2016, 04:20 AM   #71
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Assuming that you actually follow through on your intention to give it the old college try again, and further assuming that your trailer will be loaded beyond the mfg. rating, plus tow vehicle too maybe . . .

Please realize you are opening yourself up to an incredible lawsuit should you be involved in an accident of some kind, even if it is not your fault in theory.

Not to mention the risk of serious bodily injury or death.

Finally it is irresponsible as already stated to do so. You would be intentionally creating serious risk to others.

"Do unto others . . . ." ???



PS if the assumptions made at the start do not apply, I hope your next trip is great!


Quote:
Originally Posted by cazual6 View Post
I had my bent hitch fixed. I am ordering the replacement anti-sway bar, should be here well before my next trip. I will try again with the four bikes in the back with the sway control. Keeping the speed first at 45 then moving up to 65 max and see what happens. I will see if I can convince my BFF to take that trial run with me.

I will bring both gens and keep it in the TV just in case the sway bar is not enough. I will put them in the front dinette if I need to and see what happens again.

I am aware of all the weight issues from prior post on this thread.

Renting a TV just to go to BigBear again doesn't make sense financially. I think we will end up renting a hotel room instead. BigBear in the summer is a lot nicer than I expected.
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Old 06-25-2016, 06:28 AM   #72
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"I will try again with the four bikes in the back with the sway control. Keeping the speed first at 45 then moving up to 65 max and see what happens. I will see if I can convince my BFF to take that trial run with me."

Maybe you will never have gusting side winds, semi bow wave, travel downhill with a bit too much speed, brake or swerve for something suddenly in the road, or a combination of the things that introduce a sway condition, on a trailer so poorly modified it is known to sway out of control under normal conditions.

Incredible, and a risk to others on the roadway.
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Old 06-25-2016, 06:52 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cazual6 View Post
I had my bent hitch fixed. I am ordering the replacement anti-sway bar, should be here well before my next trip. I will try again with the four bikes in the back with the sway control. Keeping the speed first at 45 then moving up to 65 max and see what happens. I will see if I can convince my BFF to take that trial run with me.



I will bring both gens and keep it in the TV just in case the sway bar is not enough. I will put them in the front dinette if I need to and see what happens again.



I am aware of all the weight issues from prior post on this thread.



Renting a TV just to go to BigBear again doesn't make sense financially. I think we will end up renting a hotel room instead. BigBear in the summer is a lot nicer than I expected.

Listen, I'm sorry to "pile on" here and I'm not a doom and gloom kind of guy (though I did have an emergency exit door installed on my trailer for risk management, but that's another story...) - but you say here you're aware of the weight issues from prior posts on the thread which sounds inconsistent with actually trying this again...

Apologies if being blunt here is too harsh, but I'm concerned with your description of your setup, your acceptance of a dealer's mod the factory surely wouldn't approve (exactly for the reasons you've written about and also including frame separation) and your saying (basically) you understand what's been written in this thread but you're moving forward without truly addressing the risks you have inherent in your setup.

Honestly, it's not safe for you, your family and others with whom you are sharing the roads.

Please reconsider the warnings and advice you've received and ensure your rig is safe for traveling. I really don't want to read about some tragic catastrophe or fatality that was completely preventable. And not to be a complete jerk - but if you're not going to address this more carefully, I would hope you would at least post your planned travels and routes so others can reduce their risks of sharing a road with a hazardous setup.

I hope you'll give this the serious consideration it's due.
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Old 06-25-2016, 07:25 AM   #74
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It seems the OP has been told of the risks, several different ways and by several different people.

He now chooses to be a responsible driver, looking out for himself and others...or he does not.

He's been told.


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Old 06-26-2016, 06:00 AM   #75
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Hi
Andy here from Can-Am, we have hundreds of customers who tow with the Traverse or its sister products, it can be a very good tow vehicle but first this is VERY IMPORTANT! PLEASE DON'T tow with 4 bikes on the back!

This is far too much weight behind the axle on a 19' trailer. Also the frame of the 19' is not designed to handle that much weight that far behind the axle. They make some really great bike carriers that adapt to the Traverse roof rack that you already have. That would be the place to carry the bikes.

If you carry a small aluminum step ladder it will be easier to put the bikes on the roof. The bikes inside the Airstream are fine but kind of a pain and it is easy to mark up the interior with them.

Your Traverse is actually a considerably more stable tow vehicle than an Escalade. Towing with an Escalade won't make you safer if you don't change anything else.

For towing the 19' the standard hitch on the Traverse is not Likely strong enough to properly transfer Hitch weight. You can try setting it up but I think you will find that you cannot get the front end to push down with the standard receiver. R&J Speed in Uplands can likely do this reinforce for you. If they are not able to it is one that we can build here and ship to you for installation there but that is likely more costly.

You can improve the climbing performance and handling with a better tire size on the Traverse. A good radiator shop can install a larger radiator if you like but we generally don't have trouble with Traverses running warm. What RPM were you climbing at?

I hope this helps and feel free to send me a regular email if I can help further.

Procedure for determining which chain to use:
Setting The Torsion Bars:

Once your ball mount is set up properly, the next step is to set the torsion bar pressure by determining which link to use.

1) To do this you want ideally a cement pad but nice flat fairly new pavement will work. To start, you want the Trailer and tow vehicle in a straight line, disconnected, with the coupler ready to drop on the ball.

2) With the tow vehicle in position but disconnected apply some masking tape to all four corners of the tow vehicle’s bumpers. Chose a measurement to mark on the masking tape for example 22 inches, or whatever is appropriate for your tow vehicle. The number does not matter all we are doing is determining the height of the tow vehicle without the trailer.

3) Now that we know how the tow vehicle sits without the trailer we want to determine the change in position when we connect. Generally the goal is to have the tow vehicle pushed straight down, so the front is pushed down the same amount as the rear. Go ahead now and connect the trailer using whichever link you can connect to. If your tow vehicle has independent rear suspension you will need to roll it forward and back about 4’ to let the tires swing out to their normal position. Just put a block behind the trailer tire so you stop in the same spot and don’t turn the steering wheel.

4) You will find that the tow vehicle will have been pushed down by the weight of the trailer. For example, the rear measurement may now be 20” instead of 22” but the front may have come up to 22.5”. In this case, you would need to go up to the next link (adding tension to the torsion bars) and measure again.

5) However, you may find that the next link puts you into the opposite position where the front is pushed down 1” and the back stays even at the 22” mark. This means that the torsion bars are transferring too much weight forward.

6) If this is the case then you need a partial link. To do that overlap two chain links and slide a ½” bolt through them. A ½” bolt is 1/3 of a link of adjustment so in some cases you will need 2 bolts to achieve the correct transfer. (picture attached)

7) Most tow vehicles will end between 21 ¼” & 21 ½” front and rear if you started with marks at 22”.

8) If you are setting up a new hitch the bars will wear in quite quickly. You will likely need to add a third of a link in 2-500 miles. You will need another third after another 500-1000 miles. You will likely feel the difference in the steering as this happens. After a while it just won’t feel as planted as it was after your initial set up. It is fine to experiment 1/3 of a link at a time you should notice the difference right away if it was the right or wrong change to make.

9) Substantial change in loading in the rear of the tow vehicle or the front or rear of the trailer will also affect your torsion bar settings.

10) Always keep the ends of the torsion bars and the ball well greased. The sway bar balls do not require grease.
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Old 06-26-2016, 06:22 AM   #76
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Thanks for the feedback on the bike loading, and great clear instructions on the WD setup.

Peter
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Old 06-26-2016, 12:44 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cazual6 View Post
I had my bent hitch fixed. I am ordering the replacement anti-sway bar, should be here well before my next trip. I will try again with the four bikes in the back with the sway control. Keeping the speed first at 45 then moving up to 65 max and see what happens. I will see if I can convince my BFF to take that trial run with me.

I will bring both gens and keep it in the TV just in case the sway bar is not enough. I will put them in the front dinette if I need to and see what happens again.

I am aware of all the weight issues from prior post on this thread.

Renting a TV just to go to BigBear again doesn't make sense financially. I think we will end up renting a hotel room instead. BigBear in the summer is a lot nicer than I expected.
Don't try the test run until you have the anti-sway parts installed - probably the max. resistance units available, & for both sides.

You may have to leave some stuff home (hopefully not the wife or kids ), if it's too close to the TV or AS gross max., including the generators - or use the roof rack idea someone suggested on here for the bikes (get something adaptable to future TVs like Yakima, etc.) - in order to keep the trailer & TV in-bounds of the wt. limits.

PS - I just now see that Andy already gave you the advice - please do follow it, as he's an expert in these smaller TVs!

It might be worthwhile to email Andy Thomson at CanAm in Ontario CAN (see their ads on here) for advice on how to set up your Traverse & AS to tow safely, since he's the king of using cars & smaller suv/cuv TVs. He also has some good "Hitch Hints" articles on their website linked to the Canadian RV Lifestyle magazine website, where the full run of them are available to read. Well worth reading them for your set-up!

And relative to some other comments on Hitch Wt./Tongue Wt. with a WD hitch not mattering, it does with respect to how much wt. you hang off the back of any TV so that you're not exceeding it. Although, some mfgrs.' tow ratings seem to be the result of throwing darts at a chart of numbers, especially when they change on the same TV between model years, as one of Andy Thomson's articles about the Chrysler 300 dropping from 4-5000 to 1000!

So do rig up something at home or at a truck scale to weigh both the trailer overall alone, TV alone, both/all + the hitch/tongue wt. (some folks have used a bathroom or shop scale capable of 300-400-500 lbs (or more for the heavier HWs), with 4x4 pieces cribbed to get up to the tongue/hitch ht. (deducting the wt. of the wood of course). You can affect the HW/TW to get it to the target 10-15% & within your TV's HW/TW capacity by wt. & balance - then just get the TV's wheel wells heights back to the unhitched position as I & others noted above.

There are some good posts with advice & links to charts & procedures on how to weigh your trailer & rig, & the Sherline website has a free pdf booklet on wts. etc. there too.

Have eyes in the back of your head when over 55, since the towing speed limit is 55 in CA - sometimes posted for "All Vehicles When Towing," & sometimes only "Cars When Towing" .... I'm just saying!

Also, we used to find that we could rent a house or condo for the same or less than a hotel room up there - especially for the non-skiing/snowboarding off-season in summer, when we'd take our kids up there in our `88 Westfalia & not want to camp out in it. So you might check that avenue as well, for the interim.

Good Luck!
Tom
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Old 06-26-2016, 04:14 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avionstream View Post
No, not referring to you, sorry. I was referring to the op logic. Doctors prescribe rx that causes side effects so they prescribe another drug to counteract the first one. The op has an overloaded trailer so his solution is to add more weight up front instead of eliminating the weight on the rear. Get a second drug to offset the first drug, which was usually not necessaryto begin with.. My logic?
Thank you guys for all the love and support.

Estimated weight I have put into the FC19 is roughly 140lbs (blankets, pots, pans, utensils, etc) With fresh water tank full another (8lbs = 1g) another 176lbs lets round it up to 350lbs

Now, with the bikes, let's assume the four bikes = 200lbs. So now I am 550lbs loaded into the AS. Black and Grey are empty.

Net capacity on FC19 is 600+lbs. So lets just say for argument, I am 600lbs which is the net capacity of the FC19.

Each of the Yamaha ES200IS is 44lbs times two, 88lbs with Fuel, lets round it up to 100lbs.

So as it stands with the two gens in the FC19, I am 100lbs over. Keep in mind, I have rounded up a lot of things to account for any +/- on the weight. But lets keep assuming we are 100lbs over the net capacity.

The hitch on the back is solid. It is attached on the rig fine. I know it could be cleaner, but lets leave esthetics out of it for now. It is rated for 200lbs.

The bike rack is designed for trailers. I got the gitters out of it by using anti rattle mount and mentioned in another post. The Bike Mount is physically acting as part of the trailer with no gitter or play.

Tow capacity on 2012 Chevy Traverse with a tow package is 5200lbs.

FC19 with the 100lbs over is at 4600lbs which leaves me with roughly 600lbs.

Assume, me, wife and two kids = 500lbs (don't try to guess the wifes weight, she'll be mad)

Again, I am still under the weights capacity designed for the TV. I know I am at the peak, but still within specs. I know you should have more than what you need, then again, I am within specs. So given that I am all around with specs.

I wouldn't risk myself or others carelessly. I appreciate all the concern and love I have received from this post. As mentioned before, I don't take offense to anything no matter how brutally honest it maybe. I just want you to all know, I am/have considered factors.

I am confident in my theory before proceeding.

I do believe with the four bikes in the back with the swaybar maybe keep it from swayingl. If I do feel any sway, I will put the two gens in the FC19. If either way I am wrong, I will have no choice but to put the two bikes inside the AS. Not my preferred idea, but will do.

Given all the information I provided, I would still appreciate any feedback.
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Old 06-26-2016, 04:37 PM   #79
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Here is the clear statement from a leading expert on towing with your tow vehicle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew T View Post
Hi
Andy here from Can-Am, we have hundreds of customers who tow with the Traverse or its sister products, it can be a very good tow vehicle but first this is VERY IMPORTANT! PLEASE DON'T tow with 4 bikes on the back!
. . .
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Old 06-26-2016, 04:49 PM   #80
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Ok, one last comment and I will forfeit the idea.

Given that it is a single axel, and putting a counter weight in the front to offset the bike, are you still saying that it will sway regardless if the front has weight to counter the weight in the back?

I understand having too much weight in the back will sway, I know, I experienced it. But now, that I am putting a counter weight so technically I am balanced, are you saying no matter what it will sway, even with the anti-sway bar?

As I purchased the anti sway bar, I noticed it comes as a LEFT and RIGHT, currently I have it set up for the RIGHT. If I get the LEFT also to give me more of anti-sway, are you saying even with the counter weight and dual anti-sway, I will still sway?

I do not want to sound ungrateful for all the insights. I just to make sure you see the logic and exclude any calculations I have already done.

All previous stuff mentioned about weights, tongue weights, rear weight etc. I get that. But countering the weight will negate that weight offset. Unless I am missing something here. If I am dead wrong, I can accept it, but I would like to see deduction of parameters that are exceeding any calculations I have presented. Telling me I am wrong, given that I am driven type of guy will not stop me. If I am wrong, I need to know why so I can follow it, accept it and do without my idea.

If I am wrong, I want to completely understand why.

If you fear for me, as a weapon here are some details. I live in Northridge 91324 that is in Southern California just north of Los Angeles. When I do my test run, it will likely be on Sunday morning between 9a and 10a. I will be using the 118 E to the 210 E and head back. Because I care, there are my plans. And to put icing on the cake, I will post exactly when I will be doing it IF I end up doing it at all.

Again, I do not want to sound ungrateful, I really do appreciate all the insights. This trip rattled my wife, and I want to continue AS'ing with bikes. I just don't like having the bikes inside the AS. So it is important for me to understand.

Thank you again.
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Old 06-26-2016, 04:53 PM   #81
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You seem to want clear and convincing evidence, cazual6, tho you have received a great deal of experienced and expert opinion here.

I think that what you are asking others to give you, to convince you, is unreasonable.

Why...chance...it.



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Old 06-26-2016, 04:55 PM   #82
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If all the words thus far have not given you "understanding" than you need to admit that the physics of the setup are beyond you, at this time.

Take a physics class or talk to an engineer friend.

Just say no to bikes on the back.

And thank you for your persistence!

Just say no to yourself, it is one of the hardest things to do I know, until you truly understand the situation.

Thanks,

Peter

PS -- over and out, this is too exasperating for me . . .
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Old 06-26-2016, 04:57 PM   #83
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Andrew, where are you located? As you can see, I am getting a lot of feedback. I am a stubborn guy and needs solid answers that I can swallow easily. I am open for you to see my setup and help me keep it safe. I would be happy to pay for your services of course. Nothing is for free in this world right?
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Old 06-26-2016, 04:58 PM   #84
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The problem is not the weight but where you are putting it. 200lbs on the back of any trailer is a lot and will affect how the trailer handles.

When I was a kid we camped in a pop up towed by a Chevy minivan. one trip we traveled about 8hours from home. No problems on the way there but on the way back we had a very dangerous sway problem. The difference was the fire wood and water we had brought up but didn't have on the return trip. On the way up we had a large stack of hard wood and 2 5 gallon water containers loaded towards the front of the trailer. We burnt all the wood and used up all the water and on the way home had a light tongue, light enough to cause sway. A sway bar might have stopped the sway but wouldn't have solved the problem of the light tongue. The tow vehicle was clearly capable since we made it there with a heavier load than we returned with.

Weigh the tongue of your trailer with and without the bikes. The individual weight of the bikes doesn't matter, it's the effect on tongue weight you need to determine.
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