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Old 07-23-2016, 10:20 AM   #169
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The primary reason for the difficulty you are having to be optimistic, is that you still do not seem to understand the basic concepts of physics involved, and everyone else keeps trying to open your eyes and get you to take off your blinders. (IMO)

That is why this thread reminds me so much of Mr. Magoo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cazual6 View Post
. . . My weight is gonna be heavier in the back, so I will put more weight in the front,
. . .
Do you understand that this increases the chance of sway? To add more weight far from the trailer's center of gravity, just makes it want to sway more not less !!!

There are two dynamics at work here, and they are independent of each other:

1. fore-and-aft weight distribution -- up-and-down basically, no side-to-side component;

2. side-to-side rotational forces.

It is this second component which is the important sway-related factor. If you could stow, right in the center of the trailer, those same bikes and the added front gen, you would NOT be increasing its propensity to sway. But when you move these weights fore and aft, you are in essence creating two levers (or pendulums) each hinged at the same center of gravity, which want to rotate left and right each time the trailer bounces left and right. [all the time basically]

When all the rotational forces harmonize, that is when sway occurs. [tow vehicle bouncing L/R, trailer bouncing L/R, road bumps and crown undulates causing L/R reaction in both vehicles, tire blows out, wind from left hits tow vehicle, while wind from right hits trailer, . . . and on and on . . . tow vehicle swerves to avoid pothole, pedestrian, another car, obstruction, etc., . . . driver over-corrects to all of the above .. another L/R force is introduced . . . ]

Get it?

This is way more complicated and nuanced than simply weighing the trailer and its tongue weight etc., as you seem to be thinking.

You seem to think that weight distribution is ONLY an up-or-down consideration.

It is NOT that simple.

Many people have tried to explain this so many times . . . in this thread, and in the Quebec roll-over thread, with little success apparently . . .

. . . Out of breath again . . .

Good luck.

PS -- There is one and only one basic problem here IMO:

Stubbornness

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Old 07-23-2016, 10:37 AM   #170
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This one is close enough! Click on link at top of frame to open a new window, which permits full screen volume control, etc..

Or click on Play button in middle of frame to stay here:

"Road hog, that fool barely missed me!



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Old 07-23-2016, 11:55 AM   #171
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Keep plugging away Casual, many here wear a belt and suspenders.
http://www.engineersedge.com/calcula...ht-balance.htm
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Old 07-23-2016, 11:56 AM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cazual6 View Post
>> snip>>
My weight is gonna be heavier in the back, so I will put more weight in the front, and advices from other add an equipment to help if not enough, hench swaybar, cutting the bike shank to bring it closer, tie down sway control.
<< snip<<
Of all of these things you mentioned, the only one that will help solve your problem is to cut the bike rack shank to "bring it closer".

IMO:

Changing placement payload weight on a trailer should be done for two purposes.
(1) to adjust the vertical load on the trailer axles.
(2) to adjust the vertical weight load on the tow vehicle hitch receiver.

When weight is added to a trailer behind the trailer's normal length (adding a hitch, bike carrier, luggage carrier, or anything else) essentially lengthens the trailer. It changes how the trailer reacts in a rotational left to right horizontal direction (yaw or sway)

If you insist on making the trailer longer by adding length and/or weight to the rear, beyond the normal length of the trailer, there are two ways to overcome the problem that has been create.
(1) move the axles toward the rear of the trailer
(2) make the trailer tongue longer in the front

Another thought about one of your "solutions":
If you "hench" the sway bar resistance tighter than normal you might cause a different type of problem if weather conditions change. When towing through rain the resistance on a friction type sway bar can overcome the traction the tires have on the road. On the instructions I have read for this type sway bar says to loosen the device when it rains. If you do that, then you have lost what you gained by your "solution".
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Old 07-23-2016, 12:22 PM   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojo View Post
Keep plugging away Casual, many here wear a belt and suspenders.
http://www.engineersedge.com/calcula...ht-balance.htm
Your link has NO information about rotational sway problems, just up and down weight distribution.

A similarly myopic reaction to the mobile weapons system being discussed here. (IMO)
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Old 07-23-2016, 12:24 PM   #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A W Warn View Post
Of all of these things you mentioned, the only one that will help solve your problem is to cut the bike rack shank to "bring it closer".
. . .
I believe he already did that, or considered it.

And thank you for referencing the concept of Yaw regarding rotational forces involved in sway issues. Here is a basic overview:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaw_(rotation)

Edit -- that link will not work right -- you have to add a ")" to the end of the URL after trying it. Or click on the blue suggested link in Wikipedia's error message.

PS -- Jack Canavera's Post #22 in the Quebec roll-over thread also discusses Yaw:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f48/...ec-153984.html
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Old 07-23-2016, 12:37 PM   #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OTRA15 View Post
Your link has NO information about rotational sway problems, just up and down weight distribution.

The same myopic reaction to the mobile weapons system being discussed here. (IMO)
You're absolutely right, Mr. Magoo.
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Old 07-23-2016, 12:47 PM   #176
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Maybe ... this is a process.

Bicycles are problematic to transport, because they have peddles and handlebars that stick out. However, folks fly with them. They do a partial disassembly and pack them in a cardboard or plastic carrier. Talk to your local bike shop. That would get them inside the coach so they are not carried in the ends. Your kids can learn how to assemble and disassemble their bikes and that will grow their mechanical abilities. There are hazards here too, as with the handlebars not being tightened properly, but not if you are committed to make it work.

Alternatively, folks have built simple wooden structures that fit in the aisle of the trailer to hold and secure the bikes. Would organize the bikes when outside as well. Bet those folks would offer input if you started a how-to thread.

Rig stability can be improved by shortening the tow vehicle overhang, the distance from the ball to the rear axle, to the minimum possible. That means you do the same thing you did to the bike rack shank.

The strength of your tow vehicle receiver is also a factor. If it can flex, it will, and the more it flexes the more it adds to instability.

The tires on the tow vehicle are another opportunity to improve stability. The less tire side wall, as with a low profile tire, and the stiffer the side wall, as with a light truck or run flat tire, the less flexibility there is in the wheel to road connection. Some consideration to contact patch, grip, and wet weather traction should be in the implementation as well. Don't forget the tire inflation pressure. You can make changes when your existing tires need replacement.

Coach tires should be the safest and most reliable to reduce the possibility of an unplanned excursion. Not sure of the value of the TPMS in the range of investments you might make, but knowing you have a low tire or one overheating is valuable information. There are TPMS systems for less than $200. Maybe not the first investment, but it likely should be on the list.

There are other tweaks that may help, and helpful folks may be able to pass them along. The important point is that you consider and understand the impact on stability that these suggestions offer. That gives you a better feel for the dynamics of towing.

The best thing that you can do is drive slow. From a general perspective, 65 mph is a transition point for a well balanced rig. Every thing that erodes the stability of the rig reduces that transition point. Consider droping your max speed to 50 or 55 mph. It sounds stodgy and is certainly a pain when rolling up I5, but it is one thing that saves you money and improves the safety of your RV travels. It is a bit less stressful as well.

I understand you are having a problem with assimilating the load distribution variables and their impact. Maybe .... take your kids to the playground and put them on a see-saw. It's easy to push them up and down. That is vertical balance, like for and aft loading your trailer with the single axle as a pivot point. Now, take the kids over to the merry-go-round. Have them stand in the middle, if it is one of those flat disk types. See how easy it is to start and stop the rotation. Now have them move to the outside and see what difference that makes. It's similar to the moment arm force that is created by loading a coach in the ends. Maybe that won't help, but at least the kids will have some fun and that is what this RV thing is all about.

We really just want you to succeed.

Travel safe. Pat
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Old 07-23-2016, 12:55 PM   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PKI View Post
. . .
I understand you are having a problem with assimilating the load distribution variables and their impact. Maybe .... take your kids to the playground and put them on a see-saw. It's easy to push them up and down. That is vertical balance, like for and aft loading your trailer with the single axle as a pivot point. Now, take the kids over to the merry-go-round. Have them stand in the middle, if it is one of those flat disk types. See how easy it is to start and stop the rotation. Now have them move to the outside and see what difference that makes. It's similar to the moment arm force that is created by loading a coach in the ends. Maybe that won't help, but at least the kids will have some fun and that is what this RV thing is all about.

We really just want you to succeed.

Travel safe. Pat
Thank you for this excellent suggestion!

For a further illustration of out-of-control sway, have the children hold on to a vertical something (to keep them from flying off the merry-go-round), and then spin the thing so fast they can no longer hold on, and go flying off . . .

Something like out-of-control sway . . .

Obviously this is a joke of a suggestion, and one should not actually try it, but the concept does illustrate the way that sway -- yaw -- can go out-of-control in a heartbeat, as Jack Canavera pointed out in the Quebec Roll-over Post #22 just referenced.

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Old 07-23-2016, 02:30 PM   #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A W Warn View Post
Of all of these things you mentioned, the only one that will help solve your problem is to cut the bike rack shank to "bring it closer".

IMO:

Changing placement payload weight on a trailer should be done for two purposes.
(1) to adjust the vertical load on the trailer axles.
(2) to adjust the vertical weight load on the tow vehicle hitch receiver.

When weight is added to a trailer behind the trailer's normal length (adding a hitch, bike carrier, luggage carrier, or anything else) essentially lengthens the trailer. It changes how the trailer reacts in a rotational left to right horizontal direction (yaw or sway)

If you insist on making the trailer longer by adding length and/or weight to the rear, beyond the normal length of the trailer, there are two ways to overcome the problem that has been create.
(1) move the axles toward the rear of the trailer
(2) make the trailer tongue longer in the front

Another thought about one of your "solutions":
If you "hench" the sway bar resistance tighter than normal you might cause a different type of problem if weather conditions change. When towing through rain the resistance on a friction type sway bar can overcome the traction the tires have on the road. On the instructions I have read for this type sway bar says to loosen the device when it rains. If you do that, then you have lost what you gained by your "solution".
That warning applies to all friction sc. Equilizer type WD hitches, etc. not just the separate ones. Your Reese, Equilizer etc hitches all keep the trailer from returning to straight with the truck in slippery conditions.
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Old 07-23-2016, 02:42 PM   #179
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Before all this happened, one thing I never noticed with the AS was sway during high winds and trucks passing me by. One of the things I know about AS are they are very aerodynamic.

The rain scenario is one I didn't think about. Never really thought it because never been traveling in the rain.

The interior bike stand, whether DIY or store bought is something I would consider too if this idea of mine won't work.

My kids bike are the cheapy bike that are not mean to be taken apart. However my wife's and I are. I considered taking it apart, but I think the fork will damage the floor. I am very interested in learning more about those interior bike mounts if anyone cares to share.

I've been reading up on sway, from this thread and online. I have been watching videos of setup and learn as much as I can.

The insight about beyond weight loads such as making the trailer is something I have not considered and will look into.

The weight distribution and the "swing" analogy is great. But as mentioned in the past posts, putting the gens in the front to act as a counter weight wasn't a good idea.

After reading as much as I can, I believe the weight distribution is one of the keys I have solved. The dynamics of a single axel and making the trailer longer requires more thought.

Having the sway control will compensate to a degree. After all that is what they are designed for. I realize my problem doesn't stop there though, that is why I haven't rushed through with my road test.
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Old 07-23-2016, 02:51 PM   #180
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Here is a good discussion of yaw inertia that you will find interesting.

Caravan Dynamics
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Old 07-23-2016, 02:52 PM   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OTRA15 View Post

PS -- There is one and only one basic problem here IMO:

Stubbornness

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"Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege." (as you said . . . )
You've stuck with me through this thread, I appreciate it but no need for this.

I respect this forum to much to start throwing this kind of attitude. We can agree to disagree.

May I ask what you do and how you have so much experience in this?
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Old 07-23-2016, 03:50 PM   #182
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You may ask but the answer is not relevant. I stand by what I said, including the quote at the end, which is from your own signature.

I just don't want your blood on my hands, that's all . . .

Have a good weekend.

Peter
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