Out of control sway

[cazual6]

Originally Posted by OTRA15

PS -- There is one and only one basic problem here IMO:

Stubbornness

__________________________________________________ _____
"Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege." (as you said . . . )

You've stuck with me through this thread, I appreciate it but no need for this.

I respect this forum to much to start throwing this kind of attitude. We can agree to disagree.

May I ask what you do and how you have so much experience in this?

[OTRA15]

You may ask but the answer is not relevant. I stand by what I said, including the quote at the end, which is from your own signature.

I just don't want your blood on my hands, that's all . . .

Have a good weekend.

Peter

[PKI]

The forks get held by a mount that locks them in place like the wheels are attached. Look at the Yakama and Thule bike racks. Often used in the back of a pickup. Think carpet covered plywood with a set of vertical slots for the wheels. Less will be more, because it's easier to load and unload. Padding, boxes that capture the mount in a central location. You will find a way. Go slow and work it out.

Your kids bikes got shipped disassembled. They come apart. Get out your wrenches. Show them how to use a tool. Make it a new camping tradition where you work together to set them up and tear them down. Time them. Encourage them. Make it a family thing. You will have fun.

The interior bike racks can capture the wheels or the forks. Depends on the space and rack style. Both will need to be controlled. You are correct, you do not want to damage the floor.

Good luck. Pat

[A W Warn]

Originally Posted by cazual6

>> snip>> The interior bike stand, whether DIY or store bought is something I would consider << snip<<

An interior bike rack is what I use now. I bungie the bikes together and into the rack. I've been doing this for several years. It also give me a place to store the bikes at the campsite and cable lock them all together.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Racor-2-B...A&gclsrc=aw.ds

I went through the same scenario as you are doing now, but several years ago. I went as far as building a custom hitch and mounting it on my Safari. I took it off after the forum members warned me, and I considered the potential of rear end separation in the trailer and/or the possibility of wrecking the truck/trailer. The hitch is still lying out in the garage waiting to be re-purposed into a front mounted hitch for my truck, to support the bow of my canoe.

I also built a custom bike rack for the trailer. At least I was able to sell the bike rack.

[DC Bruce]

I would keep the concentrated 100+ lb. mass of the generators out of the ends of the trailer and load them over the axle. It's obvious that shorter single-axle trailers are much more sensitive to loading. Left to its own, a single-axle trailer has zero yaw stability. If you were strong enough to lift the tongue, you could spin it around easily. By contrast, a multi-axle trailer has inherent yaw stability; it wants to go in the direction it's pointed. I can see that every time I put my FC 27 into a tight turn when parking it; the tires scuff on the ground. So you really need to keep weight out of the ends of your trailer, even if it's "balanced" on the pitch axis (up and down). Trailer "sway" happens when the trailer becomes unstable on the yaw axis and the trailer, using the hitch near the bumper as a lever arm, tries to change the direction of the tow vehicle. Putting weight in the ends of the trailer increases its rotational inertia, making it harder to control once it starts to rotate. Friction type anti-sway hitches resist this motion but once the trailer has enough rotational energy to overcome this friction, then it offers no additional resistance.
I don't have anything to add to what others have said about the jury-rig bike hitch and the bikes except to note that, like the generators stored in front, they just add to the rotational inertia of your trailer, which makes it more difficult to control.
I have the Flamma rack on my FC 27, and the upper support broke in exactly the same place as someone showed in the photo. I was carrying an aluminum-frame "hybrid" bike and a cruiser-style bike, though not as heavy. So, I'm not wild about the product, especially given its cost. But . . . It does carry 2 bikes properly for an Airstream.
Finally, I spent nearly 6 months based in your area traveling all over the west. I took seriously California's 55 mph speed limit for towed vehicles, not exceeding 60. I noticed that most trucks did the same. I had read that your police were not lenient with RVers who flagrantly violated that limit on the theory that they probably were not as competent as long haul truck drivers. It made sense to me, but I didn't test the theory. Outside of California I would go 60 or the limit whichever was lower. After I had accumulated over 30,000 miles towing I would sometimes cruise at 63 in light traffic and easy conditions. From where you live to Big Bear, the time difference between going 55-60 and 60-65 is trivial.
Just sayin'.
You are fortunate to live in a state with such incredible scenery. We went from Imperial Beach to Crescent City and everywhere in between- Death Valley, Yosemite, Kings Canyon, you name it.
Enjoy it all!

[cazual6]

Originally Posted by cazual6

You've stuck with me through this thread, I appreciate it but no need for this.

I respect this forum to much to start throwing this kind of attitude. We can agree to disagree.

May I ask what you do and how you have so much experience in this?

You've been on this thread preaching a good amount of information, and truly I do appreciate it. I don't want you to think I don't.

But based on what you said, what you do, and your experience does matter. Look at some of the experiences said.

It is clear to me, you do care for my safety and the safety of others. I just have to know where you are getting your information from.

Don't take this as an attack, I am not.

[cazual6]

Originally Posted by A W Warn

An interior bike rack is what I use now. I bungie the bikes together and into the rack. I've been doing this for several years. It also give me a place to store the bikes at the campsite and cable lock them all together.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Racor-2-B...A&gclsrc=aw.ds

I went through the same scenario as you are doing now, but several years ago. I went as far as building a custom hitch and mounting it on my Safari. I took it off after the forum members warned me, and I considered the potential of rear end separation in the trailer and/or the possibility of wrecking the truck/trailer. The hitch is still lying out in the garage waiting to be re-purposed into a front mounted hitch for my truck, to support the bow of my canoe.

I also built a custom bike rack for the trailer. At least I was able to sell the bike rack.

The mount is something doable. I just have to measure if the bikes will fit the way the mount will fit. I appreciate the positive comment.

[cazual6]

Originally Posted by DC Bruce

I would keep the concentrated 100+ lb. mass of the generators out of the ends of the trailer and load them over the axle. It's obvious that shorter single-axle trailers are much more sensitive to loading. Left to its own, a single-axle trailer has zero yaw stability. If you were strong enough to lift the tongue, you could spin it around easily. By contrast, a multi-axle trailer has inherent yaw stability; it wants to go in the direction it's pointed. I can see that every time I put my FC 27 into a tight turn when parking it; the tires scuff on the ground. So you really need to keep weight out of the ends of your trailer, even if it's "balanced" on the pitch axis (up and down). Trailer "sway" happens when the trailer becomes unstable on the yaw axis and the trailer, using the hitch near the bumper as a lever arm, tries to change the direction of the tow vehicle. Putting weight in the ends of the trailer increases its rotational inertia, making it harder to control once it starts to rotate. Friction type anti-sway hitches resist this motion but once the trailer has enough rotational energy to overcome this friction, then it offers no additional resistance.
I don't have anything to add to what others have said about the jury-rig bike hitch and the bikes except to note that, like the generators stored in front, they just add to the rotational inertia of your trailer, which makes it more difficult to control.
I have the Flamma rack on my FC 27, and the upper support broke in exactly the same place as someone showed in the photo. I was carrying an aluminum-frame "hybrid" bike and a cruiser-style bike, though not as heavy. So, I'm not wild about the product, especially given its cost. But . . . It does carry 2 bikes properly for an Airstream.
Finally, I spent nearly 6 months based in your area traveling all over the west. I took seriously California's 55 mph speed limit for towed vehicles, not exceeding 60. I noticed that most trucks did the same. I had read that your police were not lenient with RVers who flagrantly violated that limit on the theory that they probably were not as competent as long haul truck drivers. It made sense to me, but I didn't test the theory. Outside of California I would go 60 or the limit whichever was lower. After I had accumulated over 30,000 miles towing I would sometimes cruise at 63 in light traffic and easy conditions. From where you live to Big Bear, the time difference between going 55-60 and 60-65 is trivial.
Just sayin'.
You are fortunate to live in a state with such incredible scenery. We went from Imperial Beach to Crescent City and everywhere in between- Death Valley, Yosemite, Kings Canyon, you name it.
Enjoy it all!

I would love to see the pictures. I am thrilled to have someone doing what I am trying to do. That actually did it.

I can do the two kids bike in the mount and the two adult bikes inside. That can work. I've done that already. And maybe this maybe the the way to go. The only way to go.

In one of my first trip, to Sequoia, I had the four bikes in the back and the gens in the front. The road to and from Sequoia from Northridge had all the fun of being the road. It was not smooth. Never experienced the sway. So sway was something I fought hard to understand, hence why this thread is still going. What stop the trip with the bike in the back was the Saris rack that was about to come apart on the way back. I had no incident on the way up. People were flagging me to look back. This was also when I bent my hitch due to the sway control bar because I had to do a three point turn in a street in Solvang where I pulled off. Also when I learned that NOT all bike mounts can be used for a trailer.

Sifting through this thread came good advise, well, all advise is good to me, but some were just wild statements that had no backing behind it other than to say it won't work. It may NOT work, I get it. But I wanted to understand. People gave lots and lots and lots of advice. Some made sense, and some were beyond my understanding. I continued and still continue to appreciate it.

I am stubborn. Especially when I put my mind into something. I work the problem to get a solution. Solution takes theory and field test. Everyone has given me so much information. i am sure they are all way smarter than me. And maybe that is why I didn't get it.

If you would please, send me pics of your current setup if it is not too much to ask.

[Tom_T]

Originally Posted by cazual6

Tom, it's becoming harder to be optimistic about this thread, but as I said in the beginning, I'm gonna appreciate the good, the bad and the ugly advices because to me, it just means they care.

When you said everyone does some sort of balance to counterweight the balance, why is my attempt any different. When we load our AS or TV we keep in our mind how the weight is distributed, I'm doing the same thing. My weight is gonna be heavier in the back, so I will put more weight in the front, and advices from other add an equipment to help if not enough, hench swaybar, cutting the bike shank to bring it closer, tie down sway control.
....

Hey Caz,

Don't lose faith/optimism. Some here take different approaches, & many are belt & suspenders + + + types, while others limit to reasonable suggestions. So take in what works in your case.

A while back on another topic, I had one fellow tell me I was crazy if I didn't have all of: the Hensley WD/SC hitch, electronic sway control in BOTH the TV & trailer, change out our "too old 1960" Avion's axles & wheels for "modern" torsion bar axles with disc brakes & shock absorbers, etc., etc., etc., & some other stuff I can't even recall. Sometimes it just goes too far with some folks.

I was saying that what you are attempting, is no different than others packing their trailers to balance them fore-&-aft for ride & hitch weight.

However, I was also saying that you may not even have a HW problem being too low - even with 3-4 bikes on the back, until & unless it is weighed with & without bikes. So that may be unnecessary, & you can place generators anywhere else inside that works best for you & closer to the axle - so long as the total weight of the trailer as loaded doesn't exceed either the Traverse's GCTW & GTW & HW or the AS's GVWR.

One concern I have with bikes, chairs, etc. carried inside the trailer, is that they could break loose & fly around & damage stuff inside a nice trailer - or even just sliding &/or vibration scratching the finishes &/or floor. I'd be concerned that the bike carrier set-up designed for a pick-up truck bed would possibly scratch up the floor & side cabinets, as well as adding weight, when proper tie-downs & straps/bungees to the bikes will do the same job without the added weight of the carrier unit.

AFAIK, only the AS Eddie Bauer toy carrier models (& whatever the new version is called) have the necessary tie-downs for ratcheting or elastic (bungie) tie-downs. So folks would have to add those into their other trailers, & they do make some nice AS & other maker flip-up/fold-down chrome & other finish hold-downs which can be flush mounted into floors or cabinets/walls (attachment done properly of course).

I think that your shortened shank on the Swagman bike rack & the added stabilization tie-downs/connectors will put you into the same or similar situation as an AS/Fiamma bike rack set-up allowed by the AS manual.

You now have your SC back & working on your WD hitch, so you have that safety matter set - which is needed with or without the bike rack/bikes issue. IMHO, the biggest part of your original sway problem, was that you had the SC disconnected & ergo had zero SC up to Big Bear that 1st time from the OP. The bikes on the rack exacerbated the problem, so I & others advised you to take them off until the hitch & balls/mount was repaired or replaced.

I would not try lengthening the tongue nor any of the other extensive mod suggestions of that sort. For far less money - assuming that your current WD/SC hitch isn't satisfactory in your &/or an AS dealer's or trailer shop's opinion - then you could always step up to the Hensley Cub for far less cost than trailer structural mods.

Hensley says there is no problem with using bike/cargo racks & sway with their hitch - in part due to the fact that they replace a half-cup with a tension coupler connection to the TV, with a solid connection of 2" square bars into both the TV hitch receiver & at the hitch head "box."

So my last advice now it to just have a fun vacation, stay away from this forum while there with your family so you enjoy your time with them, then pick it up again later when home.

Cheers!
Tom
///////

[cazual6]

Originally Posted by Tom_T

Hey Caz,

Don't lose faith/optimism. Some here take different approaches, & many are belt & suspenders + + + types, while others limit to reasonable suggestions. So take in what works in your case.

A while back on another topic, I had one fellow tell me I was crazy if I didn't have all of: the Hensley WD/SC hitch, electronic sway control in BOTH the TV & trailer, change out our "too old 1960" Avion's axles & wheels for "modern" torsion bar axles with disc brakes & shock absorbers, etc., etc., etc., & some other stuff I can't even recall. Sometimes it just goes too far with some folks.

I was saying that what you are attempting, is no different than others packing their trailers to balance them fore-&-aft for ride & hitch weight.

However, I was also saying that you may not even have a HW problem being too low - even with 3-4 bikes on the back, until & unless it is weighed with & without bikes. So that may be unnecessary, & you can place generators anywhere else inside that works best for you & closer to the axle - so long as the total weight of the trailer as loaded doesn't exceed either the Traverse's GCTW & GTW & HW or the AS's GVWR.

One concern I have with bikes, chairs, etc. carried inside the trailer, is that they could break loose & fly around & damage stuff inside a nice trailer - or even just sliding &/or vibration scratching the finishes &/or floor. I'd be concerned that the bike carrier set-up designed for a pick-up truck bed would possibly scratch up the floor & side cabinets, as well as adding weight, when proper tie-downs & straps/bungees to the bikes will do the same job without the added weight of the carrier unit.

AFAIK, only the AS Eddie Bauer toy carrier models (& whatever the new version is called) have the necessary tie-downs for ratcheting or elastic (bungie) tie-downs. So folks would have to add those into their other trailers, & they do make some nice AS & other maker flip-up/fold-down chrome & other finish hold-downs which can be flush mounted into floors or cabinets/walls (attachment done properly of course).

I think that your shortened shank on the Swagman bike rack & the added stabilization tie-downs/connectors will put you into the same or similar situation as an AS/Fiamma bike rack set-up allowed by the AS manual.

You now have your SC back & working on your WD hitch, so you have that safety matter set - which is needed with or without the bike rack/bikes issue. IMHO, the biggest part of your original sway problem, was that you had the SC disconnected & ergo had zero SC up to Big Bear that 1st time from the OP. The bikes on the rack exacerbated the problem, so I & others advised you to take them off until the hitch & balls/mount was repaired or replaced.

I would not try lengthening the tongue nor any of the other extensive mod suggestions of that sort. For far less money - assuming that your current WD/SC hitch isn't satisfactory in your &/or an AS dealer's or trailer shop's opinion - then you could always step up to the Hensley Cub for far less cost than trailer structural mods.

Hensley says there is no problem with using bike/cargo racks & sway with their hitch - in part due to the fact that they replace a half-cup with a tension coupler connection to the TV, with a solid connection of 2" square bars into both the TV hitch receiver & at the hitch head "box."

So my last advice now it to just have a fun vacation, stay away from this forum while there with your family so you enjoy your time with them, then pick it up again later when home.

Cheers!
Tom
///////

Thank you.

I've got some homework to do when I get from my cruise.

[cazual6]

Originally Posted by A W Warn

An interior bike rack is what I use now. I bungie the bikes together and into the rack. I've been doing this for several years. It also give me a place to store the bikes at the campsite and cable lock them all together.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Racor-2-B...A&gclsrc=aw.ds

I went through the same scenario as you are doing now, but several years ago. I went as far as building a custom hitch and mounting it on my Safari. I took it off after the forum members warned me, and I considered the potential of rear end separation in the trailer and/or the possibility of wrecking the truck/trailer. The hitch is still lying out in the garage waiting to be re-purposed into a front mounted hitch for my truck, to support the bow of my canoe.

I also built a custom bike rack for the trailer. At least I was able to sell the bike rack.

How did you secure the bike rack inside so it won't slide around or damage the floor?

Are you able to send me pictures how you did it? My wife would be thrilled about this.

[Sbb]

I made one for my insanely expensive merlyn road bike. I too have a 19' Bambi. I took table off and traved with that on the bed. I took a 2x4 the width of the floor under the table by front window. I got the same type little screw type bracket to hold front fork in place. I used two screws to keep on the 2x4. That's it. I am female, age 62, with the best, yet most unhandy husband in the world. It was so simple and effective and quick.

[A W Warn]

Originally Posted by cazual6

How did you secure the bike rack inside so it won't slide around or damage the floor?

Are you able to send me pictures how you did it? My wife would be thrilled about this.

I don't have a photo. I will not be home until the weekend.

What I do:
My 25' has the gaucho across the front and the dinette on the road side. (Floor plan C six sleeper) The bike rack fits in between the back of the dinette and the gaucho, so that the bikes are facing side to side, not down the center of the trailer. I use a movers quilt/pad over the front edge of the gaucho that drapes down onto the floor. I set the bike rack on top of the portion of the quilt that's on the floor. After I load and bungee them together and into the rack, I cover them with a second quilt then slide them tight against the gaucho. At first I would use more bungees to fasten them to the furniture, but I've found that I do not need to. Normally the bikes will stay in place unless I have to brake hard. I suppose that is because of my slow and smooth driving style
Since your trailer floor plan is different and has one axle instead of 2, so it rides different than mine, all I can advise is to experiment with it.
I've seen some of the Eddie Bauer models that have tie downs in the floor. You might add a few of them to secure your bikes.

Sbb's method might be better for your size trailer, (and would allow for more bikes inside, even better)

[Alumineer]

Get a couple of these fork mounts and either mount them to a 2x piece of lumber or onto a 2x2 square of 1/2" or thicker plywood (with rubber feet on the bottom if you like). Then you can set your bikes anywhere inside the trailer that there is floor space. An alternative would be to mount the fork mounts permanently to the wall or floor of the trailer in a place where they won't interfere with other uses.

Most bike oriented sports shops will have stuff like this available, and you can also get adapters for 15mm or other size through-axles that are common on newer mountain bikes.

[cazual6]

Originally Posted by Sbb

I made one for my insanely expensive merlyn road bike. I too have a 19' Bambi. I took table off and traved with that on the bed. I took a 2x4 the width of the floor under the table by front window. I got the same type little screw type bracket to hold front fork in place. I used two screws to keep on the 2x4. That's it. I am female, age 62, with the best, yet most unhandy husband in the world. It was so simple and effective and quick.

Would it be too much to ask for a photo? I will be going on my next trip towards mid September.

[cazual6]

Originally Posted by Alumineer

Get a couple of these fork mounts and either mount them to a 2x piece of lumber or onto a 2x2 square of 1/2" or thicker plywood (with rubber feet on the bottom if you like). Then you can set your bikes anywhere inside the trailer that there is floor space. An alternative would be to mount the fork mounts permanently to the wall or floor of the trailer in a place where they won't interfere with other uses.

Most bike oriented sports shops will have stuff like this available, and you can also get adapters for 15mm or other size through-axles that are common on newer mountain bikes.

Would it be too much to ask for a photo? (if you have one setup of course) I will be going on my next trip towards mid September.

[jcl]

Photos in this thread:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f160...ck-130034.html

[cazual6]

Originally Posted by jcl

Photos in this thread:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f160...ck-130034.html

Nice!! I'm gonna see if I have the know how to do that. I'm an AV guy, not much of a carpenter. This is great. More options for me. Thank yiu

[OTRA15]

Not sure if you have seen the video linked in the first post of the following thread. A great illustration of the effects of excessive weight at the rear end of a trailer.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f238...nt-157804.html

Happy Trails.

Peter

Originally Posted by cazual6

Nice!! I'm gonna see if I have the know how to do that. I'm an AV guy, not much of a carpenter. This is great. More options for me. Thank yiu

[cazual6]

Team,

I just reread this after someone posted something about wanting to put bikes in the back.

I can say it can be done. But, but, but be very cautions about it. Minimal weight is all I can say. I put only kids bike, less than 50lbs. For the most part, it is now just a flag pole holder.

It was interesting rereading the advices, challenges and lack of understanding of what I thought I knew, what people knew, and most of all experiences.

Having been in this forum for over a year now and have participated in many discussions and read tons of threads, what people know vs experiences don't always go hand in hand.

We all can agree on one thing: Safety first.