Minivan Towing

[rostam]

There are folks in this forum that have towed a 3500# trailer with a minivan and have found it "inadequate". There are others who are towing 8000# trailers and think the minivan is "fine". I believe both of them, as they are expressing their subjective opinions. Subjective opinions are just that, subjective. It does not help me understand the towing capability of a minivan. Hence, we need an objective measure, which fortunately we do have and is called J2807 SAE towing standards.

It would be great if someone could run the J2807 tests on the minivans and tell us the actual towing capacity. Can the minivan with 8000# in tow do a 0 to 60 in less than 30 seconds (important when you are merging to highway)? Can it go up a grade, with 2 people on board, and AC on and maintain a certain speed without overheating? and all the other tests in J2807.

[Chuck]

Yeah, but your AC unit is in the wrong hole, further aft, which obviously lightens the tongue weight. Plus, I have rear and street-side awnings.

Seriously, though: its all about the gearing. The ol' 318 has 230hp and 300ftlbs (allegedly). But with the 3:55 rear-end.
If you do the math, the combination produces 2000lbs of thrust in 1st gear. (torque x 1st gear x rear end/wheel diameter). Weighs about 5200lbs.
Modern mini's (they're all very similar) produce about 3000lbs, and weigh about 4600lbs. 6 gears instead of 3. Same payload as a 1/2-ton pickup.

I'm replacing the truck with a 2011 GMC Acadia, which has similar power/payload to the mini's. Can't wait to try it, but sadly, its gonna be a while, as the trailer is still under renovation.
I figure this way, I'll have the more appropriate daily-driver/mom-mobile for the other 355 days of the year, and yet, you can't give me too much crap for towing my camper with it, because it'll still likely be within the manufacturer's ratings.

[MrUKToad]

Originally Posted by rostam

There are folks in this forum that have towed a 3500# trailer with a minivan and have found it "inadequate". There are others who are towing 8000# trailers and think the minivan is "fine". I believe both of them, as they are expressing their subjective opinions. Subjective opinions are just that, subjective. It does not help me understand the towing capability of a minivan. Hence, we need an objective measure, which fortunately we do have and is called J2807 SAE towing standards.

It would be great if someone could run the J2807 tests on the minivans and tell us the actual towing capacity. Can the minivan with 8000# in tow do a 0 to 60 in less than 30 seconds (important when you are merging to highway)? Can it go up a grade, with 2 people on board, and AC on and maintain a certain speed without overheating? and all the other tests in J2807.

As has been said before, there's no financial incentive to run independent tests of a plethora of TV and trailer combinations, especially those that are not marketed as towing vehicles. Without such tests we only have subjective information to rely on, mainly very unscientific observations.

My experiences with the minivan have been largely positive and I'd buy another one if I needed to. Sure, minivans have their limitations, but towing our Airstream up grades on the eastern side of the continent hasn't made me feel that it lacks power, in a any sense. But that's just my observation. Others may (probably will!) see things differently.

[slowmover]

J2807 is not objective. The protocols ignored more than they included. The ends defined the means so that if by objective you mean "the objective search for truth" J2807 is not that.


Sent from my iPhone using Airstream Forums

[projector]

I'd be more worried about the life of the transmission than speed.

[rostam]

Originally Posted by slowmover

J2807 is not objective. The protocols ignored more than they included. The ends defined the means so that if by objective you mean "the objective search for truth" J2807 is not that.


Sent from my iPhone using Airstream Forums

J2807 is 100% objective because it relies on numbers, not opinions. Also, all the car companies had a say in defining the tests. Reading the test descriptions, they make sense intuitively. It may not be perfect but its a great starting point and will become more refined as time goes by.

[Chuck]

yeah, but its not going to be used as a means to calculate the tow rating. Its just a cross-check. "if you claim your vehicle can tow x, it has to do it under these conditions". Its not as if they're going to take a medium sized trailer, and keep adding weight to it in 500lb increments, re-run the test, repeat until it fails, then subtract 10% and there's your "rating". There's still going to be that same pull between marketing, legal, and "reality".
What the standard might do is prevent over-inflated claims...like the truck that can tow 9000lbs this year, but last year's model could only do 7, and there were no mechanical changes between model years.
The minivan isn't equipped by the factory with anything more than a flimsy 3500lb hitch, so its never going to have more of a rating that. They don't care what might be possible with a custom mod...just like they don't speculate if the owner wants to put a lift kit and 35" mudders on it. (like is so commonly done with Jeeps, for example. "Your mod, your problem," as far as the factory is concerned).

I saw some of those tests in the new standard, and I doubt my truck would pass, with its published rating. I think I actually failed it on one, myself. There's one where the vehicle has to be able to back the trailer up a hill a certain distance up a certain grade, and repeat this like 5 times in 5 minutes, or something like that (without overheating). Well, that describes my driveway. Tough parking situation, up to the top of a steep hill. If you don't get aligned just right on your way up, you'll fail, and have to pull back down the hill, and try again.
So I was having a bad day one time, and kept screwing up my approach, breaking off, and re-trying. 4th or 5th time I finally got it right, but just as I was finishing up, the tranny light came on. (doh!).
Remember, my trailer does not weigh anywhere near the 7000lb+ rating of the truck, and I am NOT in the Arizona desert, and my A/C was probably not even on, let alone going full blast.
But the last 50' of my driveway is a 13% grade. (I actually measured it). I don't think that the backup test calls for the grade being that steep.
It was at this point that it dawned on me (duh) I have 4WD low available. I didn't want to do this at first, because my parking job requires a 90-degree turn, and that is a bad thing to do on dry pavement. But I figure its worth it to save the tranny. Anyway, in 4WL, it practically idles up the hill, effortlessly. Amazing what 3x the torque will do.

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by rostam

J2807 is 100% objective because it relies on numbers, not opinions. Also, all the car companies had a say in defining the tests. Reading the test descriptions, they make sense intuitively. It may not be perfect but its a great starting point and will become more refined as time goes by.

No. Not when entire classes of vehicles are left out and tests are limited in type as well as scope. J2807 has holes in it big enough to drive my 1T through.

We went through much of this years back in threads on the subject.

The applicability of this "standard" is limited to itself and not to what is reasonable.

I'm all in favor of using numbers to establish a baseline for any tow combination. J2807 does not make that easier or simpler.

Sent from my iPhone using Airstream Forums

[Geobie07]

@KJRitchie was asking about towing out West, so I thought I'd jump in with our experience.

We have a 1993 30' Excella (front kitchen model) and we tow it with a 2010 Honda Odyssey, all modified (expertly) by Can-Am in London, Ontario. In the summer of 2011 we (my wife plus 5 young children) traveled from Ontario, Canada, to the West Coast and back. Our route took us through the States on the way there and Canada on the way back. We went through the Badlands in South Dakota, then Custer State Park / Black Hills / Mount Rushmore, then across to Yellowstone/Grand Tetons, crossing the Continental Divide several times. Then on through Idaho/Washington into southern BC to Kelowna. Returned through southern BC on Hwy 3 through the Crowsnest Pass - which has probably 2 or 3 of the longest & steepest grades in North America.

The long grades were challenging, but not insurmountable. We climbed the longest grades in 1st gear at 25mph (40kmh) and about 4,000RPM. Only twice did we have that, and the engine temp gauge climbed not at all, as long as the a/c was left off and the heater on to blow off the excess heat. Fortunately it was cool enough to keep the windows open somewhat to offset that heat, and it was only for a short while. On both of these grades all the semi-trucks were doing the same speed - or even slower - with their four-way flashers on. On the descent they did the same, and so we followed their lead and stayed in 1st gear, very comfortably and safely descending.

For the lesser grades we would drop to 2nd gear and maintain about 40mph very easily, with no concerns having the a/c on. Again, 2nd gear on the way down if the grade was the same, with no issues either.

The total trip was about 7,000 miles and the van did a great job. Outside of the hills we had no trouble maintaining 60 - 65mph, and even 75mph with a tailwind coming east across the prairies. The drive was smooth, with no concerns regarding sway at all (we have a Hensley hitch). One complaint is the small gas tank - about 17 gallons, so at 12 - 14 mpg we had to tank up every 180 - 200 miles in order to avoid running it dry. But at least always one kid had to go pee by then anyway! Another minor complaint is the traction when on wet grass or gravel in campgrounds - all wheel drive would be nice in those occasions, so instead with our front wheel drive we had to take a bit of run to get up small gravel hills (but not hit the golf-cart that was leading us to our site!).

We've now got about 60,000 miles on the vehicle, with about 12,000 of that towing. We've had no troubles with the vehicle and have done the regular maintenance - with our mechanic being amazed that the transmission and everything else are showing no signs of increased wear and tear at all.

All in all we love our Odyssey as a day to day vehicle and it performs very well as our tow vehicle as well.

[rostam]

Originally Posted by slowmover

No. Not when entire classes of vehicles are left out and tests are limited in type as well as scope. J2807 has holes in it big enough to drive my 1T through.

We went through much of this years back in threads on the subject.

The applicability of this "standard" is limited to itself and not to what is reasonable.

I'm all in favor of using numbers to establish a baseline for any tow combination. J2807 does not make that easier or simpler.

Sent from my iPhone using Airstream Forums

Well, its surely better than the previous state we were in (where there was NO standard). My experience is that usually such efforts are not launched in a perfect state. They start out with some flaws and are then gradually refined as we go.

Based on my quick review, it tests the pulling, stopping, and cooling capabilities of a TV. What area do you think the tests are lacking? And what is your suggestion to improve it?

[andreasduess]

I took a self imposed break from the forum because of the circular nature of the conversation. Coming back, I see nothing has changed.

People towing with minivans: "it works fine, no problems to report."

People not towing with minivans: "it can't be so, you must be wrong."

See you in a couple of months.

[m.hony]

Ditto/what he said.
Sometimes the arguing/bickering makes my blood boil and I have to stay away for a while.
Why is it human nature to be critical and judgmental?
I'm convinced that if I bought a 3/4 ton diesel pickup I would still have critics. I have what I have and that's what I'm gonna have for a very long time. I will replace the tow vehicle before I replace the trailer, and that might be 20 or 30 years or all of them-

[cory_can]

Originally Posted by andreasduess

I took a self imposed break from the forum because of the circular nature of the conversation. Coming back, I see nothing has changed.

People towing with minivans: "it works fine, no problems to report."

People not towing with minivans: "it can't be so, you must be wrong."

See you in a couple of months.

haha, funny because it's true

[slowmover]

There is about a half century experience with WD hitches. And good success in using them.


Sent from my iPhone using Airstream Forums

[dkottum]

And the most persistent and severe critic of our various tow vehicles does not tow an Airstream, easiest and most stable towing travel trailer on the market (that is subjective too, perhaps it could be objective, the internet must have a chart with some numbers somewhere).

[MrUKToad]

Originally Posted by andreasduess

I took a self imposed break from the forum because of the circular nature of the conversation. Coming back, I see nothing has changed.

People towing with minivans: "it works fine, no problems to report."

People not towing with minivans: "it can't be so, you must be wrong."

See you in a couple of months.

That made me smile, Andy.

It put me in mind of the fellow in the campground at Gananoque who told me, without a flicker of a smile on his face, that I didn't ought to tow in the US with the minivan because it was illegal and I'd have it all impounded immediately. I didn't have the heart to tell him we were just on our way back from two weeks in Plymouth, Massachusetts.

See you in a couple of months

[Jim Flower]

Love this topic. Always provides an afternoon smile. Especially when I am lumbering home over the Burlington Skyway in the slow lane and the Minivans are blowing by me, full of happy, smiling faces. I think of Andy and Steve. Jim


Sent from my iPhone using Airstream Forums

[cory_can]

Originally Posted by Jim Flower

Love this topic. Always provides an afternoon smile. Especially when I am lumbering home over the Burlington Skyway in the slow lane and the Minivans are blowing by me, full of happy, smiling faces. I think of Andy and Steve. Jim


Sent from my iPhone using Airstream Forums

Well, don't get carried away about the non-towing minivan driving experience

[Chuck]

Originally Posted by MrUKToad

That made me smile, Andy.

It put me in mind of the fellow in the campground at Gananoque who told me, without a flicker of a smile on his face, that I didn't ought to tow in the US with the minivan because it was illegal and I'd have it all impounded immediately. I didn't have the heart to tell him we were just on our way back from two weeks in Plymouth, Massachusetts.

See you in a couple of months

The biggest problem in this statement is not the legal analysis, nor the vehicular combination; its the question of what in the world is there to do in Plymouth for 2 solid weeks?!

[Road Ruler]

Originally Posted by MrUKToad

That made me smile, Andy.

It put me in mind of the fellow in the campground at Gananoque who told me, without a flicker of a smile on his face, that I didn't ought to tow in the US with the minivan because it was illegal and I'd have it all impounded immediately. I didn't have the heart to tell him we were just on our way back from two weeks in Plymouth, Massachusetts.

This reminds me of a nice fellow who was rving in a big motorhome.

We were camped at Manitoulin Island and he stopped to check out our rig. He advised us not to go north off the island because there was a steep grade and we would have trouble with it. As we left the island we went north. We never did realize the grade he warned us about and there was only one road north so maybe we blinked or something, and didn't feel the climb.