Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 11-13-2014, 07:57 AM   #43
Rivet Master
 
MrUKToad's Avatar

 
2011 28' International
Chatham , Ontario
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,372
Images: 17
Blog Entries: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by rostam View Post
There are folks in this forum that have towed a 3500# trailer with a minivan and have found it "inadequate". There are others who are towing 8000# trailers and think the minivan is "fine". I believe both of them, as they are expressing their subjective opinions. Subjective opinions are just that, subjective. It does not help me understand the towing capability of a minivan. Hence, we need an objective measure, which fortunately we do have and is called J2807 SAE towing standards.

It would be great if someone could run the J2807 tests on the minivans and tell us the actual towing capacity. Can the minivan with 8000# in tow do a 0 to 60 in less than 30 seconds (important when you are merging to highway)? Can it go up a grade, with 2 people on board, and AC on and maintain a certain speed without overheating? and all the other tests in J2807.
As has been said before, there's no financial incentive to run independent tests of a plethora of TV and trailer combinations, especially those that are not marketed as towing vehicles. Without such tests we only have subjective information to rely on, mainly very unscientific observations.

My experiences with the minivan have been largely positive and I'd buy another one if I needed to. Sure, minivans have their limitations, but towing our Airstream up grades on the eastern side of the continent hasn't made me feel that it lacks power, in a any sense. But that's just my observation. Others may (probably will!) see things differently.
__________________

__________________
Steve; also known as Mr UK Toad

"You can't tow that with that!"

http://toadsoftowedhaul.com
MrUKToad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2014, 08:17 AM   #44
Vintage Kin
 
slowmover's Avatar
 
Fort Worth , Texas
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,592
Images: 1
J2807 is not objective. The protocols ignored more than they included. The ends defined the means so that if by objective you mean "the objective search for truth" J2807 is not that.


Sent from my iPhone using Airstream Forums
__________________

__________________
1990 35' Silver Streak Sterling; 9k GVWR.
2004 DODGE Cummins 305/555; 6-manual; 9k GVWR.
Hensley Arrow. 9-cpm solo, 15-cpm towing
Sold: Silver Streak Model 3411
slowmover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2014, 08:27 AM   #45
3 Rivet Member
 
projector's Avatar
 
1972 23' Safari
NSB , Florida
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 138
I'd be more worried about the life of the transmission than speed.
__________________
projector is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2014, 08:34 AM   #46
Rivet Master
 
Vintage Kin Owner
N/A , N/A
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 995
Images: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowmover View Post
J2807 is not objective. The protocols ignored more than they included. The ends defined the means so that if by objective you mean "the objective search for truth" J2807 is not that.


Sent from my iPhone using Airstream Forums
J2807 is 100% objective because it relies on numbers, not opinions. Also, all the car companies had a say in defining the tests. Reading the test descriptions, they make sense intuitively. It may not be perfect but its a great starting point and will become more refined as time goes by.
__________________
rostam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2014, 09:52 AM   #47
Patriotic
 
Chuck's Avatar

 
1973 23' Safari
North of Boston , Massachusetts
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 4,533
Images: 260
yeah, but its not going to be used as a means to calculate the tow rating. Its just a cross-check. "if you claim your vehicle can tow x, it has to do it under these conditions". Its not as if they're going to take a medium sized trailer, and keep adding weight to it in 500lb increments, re-run the test, repeat until it fails, then subtract 10% and there's your "rating". There's still going to be that same pull between marketing, legal, and "reality".
What the standard might do is prevent over-inflated claims...like the truck that can tow 9000lbs this year, but last year's model could only do 7, and there were no mechanical changes between model years.
The minivan isn't equipped by the factory with anything more than a flimsy 3500lb hitch, so its never going to have more of a rating that. They don't care what might be possible with a custom mod...just like they don't speculate if the owner wants to put a lift kit and 35" mudders on it. (like is so commonly done with Jeeps, for example. "Your mod, your problem," as far as the factory is concerned).

I saw some of those tests in the new standard, and I doubt my truck would pass, with its published rating. I think I actually failed it on one, myself. There's one where the vehicle has to be able to back the trailer up a hill a certain distance up a certain grade, and repeat this like 5 times in 5 minutes, or something like that (without overheating). Well, that describes my driveway. Tough parking situation, up to the top of a steep hill. If you don't get aligned just right on your way up, you'll fail, and have to pull back down the hill, and try again.
So I was having a bad day one time, and kept screwing up my approach, breaking off, and re-trying. 4th or 5th time I finally got it right, but just as I was finishing up, the tranny light came on. (doh!).
Remember, my trailer does not weigh anywhere near the 7000lb+ rating of the truck, and I am NOT in the Arizona desert, and my A/C was probably not even on, let alone going full blast.
But the last 50' of my driveway is a 13% grade. (I actually measured it). I don't think that the backup test calls for the grade being that steep.
It was at this point that it dawned on me (duh) I have 4WD low available. I didn't want to do this at first, because my parking job requires a 90-degree turn, and that is a bad thing to do on dry pavement. But I figure its worth it to save the tranny. Anyway, in 4WL, it practically idles up the hill, effortlessly. Amazing what 3x the torque will do.
__________________
Air:291
Wbcci: 3752
'73 Safari 23'
'00 Dodge Ram 1500 4x4 QC
Chuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2014, 10:01 AM   #48
Vintage Kin
 
slowmover's Avatar
 
Fort Worth , Texas
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,592
Images: 1
Minivan Towing

Quote:
Originally Posted by rostam View Post
J2807 is 100% objective because it relies on numbers, not opinions. Also, all the car companies had a say in defining the tests. Reading the test descriptions, they make sense intuitively. It may not be perfect but its a great starting point and will become more refined as time goes by.

No. Not when entire classes of vehicles are left out and tests are limited in type as well as scope. J2807 has holes in it big enough to drive my 1T through.

We went through much of this years back in threads on the subject.

The applicability of this "standard" is limited to itself and not to what is reasonable.

I'm all in favor of using numbers to establish a baseline for any tow combination. J2807 does not make that easier or simpler.

Sent from my iPhone using Airstream Forums
__________________
1990 35' Silver Streak Sterling; 9k GVWR.
2004 DODGE Cummins 305/555; 6-manual; 9k GVWR.
Hensley Arrow. 9-cpm solo, 15-cpm towing
Sold: Silver Streak Model 3411
slowmover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2014, 10:15 AM   #49
2 Rivet Member
 
Geobie07's Avatar
 
1993 30' Excella
Elora , Ontario
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 24
Western experiences....

@KJRitchie was asking about towing out West, so I thought I'd jump in with our experience.

We have a 1993 30' Excella (front kitchen model) and we tow it with a 2010 Honda Odyssey, all modified (expertly) by Can-Am in London, Ontario. In the summer of 2011 we (my wife plus 5 young children) traveled from Ontario, Canada, to the West Coast and back. Our route took us through the States on the way there and Canada on the way back. We went through the Badlands in South Dakota, then Custer State Park / Black Hills / Mount Rushmore, then across to Yellowstone/Grand Tetons, crossing the Continental Divide several times. Then on through Idaho/Washington into southern BC to Kelowna. Returned through southern BC on Hwy 3 through the Crowsnest Pass - which has probably 2 or 3 of the longest & steepest grades in North America.

The long grades were challenging, but not insurmountable. We climbed the longest grades in 1st gear at 25mph (40kmh) and about 4,000RPM. Only twice did we have that, and the engine temp gauge climbed not at all, as long as the a/c was left off and the heater on to blow off the excess heat. Fortunately it was cool enough to keep the windows open somewhat to offset that heat, and it was only for a short while. On both of these grades all the semi-trucks were doing the same speed - or even slower - with their four-way flashers on. On the descent they did the same, and so we followed their lead and stayed in 1st gear, very comfortably and safely descending.

For the lesser grades we would drop to 2nd gear and maintain about 40mph very easily, with no concerns having the a/c on. Again, 2nd gear on the way down if the grade was the same, with no issues either.

The total trip was about 7,000 miles and the van did a great job. Outside of the hills we had no trouble maintaining 60 - 65mph, and even 75mph with a tailwind coming east across the prairies. The drive was smooth, with no concerns regarding sway at all (we have a Hensley hitch). One complaint is the small gas tank - about 17 gallons, so at 12 - 14 mpg we had to tank up every 180 - 200 miles in order to avoid running it dry. But at least always one kid had to go pee by then anyway! Another minor complaint is the traction when on wet grass or gravel in campgrounds - all wheel drive would be nice in those occasions, so instead with our front wheel drive we had to take a bit of run to get up small gravel hills (but not hit the golf-cart that was leading us to our site!).

We've now got about 60,000 miles on the vehicle, with about 12,000 of that towing. We've had no troubles with the vehicle and have done the regular maintenance - with our mechanic being amazed that the transmission and everything else are showing no signs of increased wear and tear at all.

All in all we love our Odyssey as a day to day vehicle and it performs very well as our tow vehicle as well.
__________________
Geobie07 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2014, 10:18 AM   #50
Rivet Master
 
Vintage Kin Owner
N/A , N/A
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 995
Images: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowmover View Post
No. Not when entire classes of vehicles are left out and tests are limited in type as well as scope. J2807 has holes in it big enough to drive my 1T through.

We went through much of this years back in threads on the subject.

The applicability of this "standard" is limited to itself and not to what is reasonable.

I'm all in favor of using numbers to establish a baseline for any tow combination. J2807 does not make that easier or simpler.

Sent from my iPhone using Airstream Forums
Well, its surely better than the previous state we were in (where there was NO standard). My experience is that usually such efforts are not launched in a perfect state. They start out with some flaws and are then gradually refined as we go.

Based on my quick review, it tests the pulling, stopping, and cooling capabilities of a TV. What area do you think the tests are lacking? And what is your suggestion to improve it?
__________________
rostam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2014, 11:39 AM   #51
Rivet Master
 
andreasduess's Avatar
 
1984 34' International
Toronto , Ontario
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,496
Images: 5
Blog Entries: 1
I took a self imposed break from the forum because of the circular nature of the conversation. Coming back, I see nothing has changed.

People towing with minivans: "it works fine, no problems to report."

People not towing with minivans: "it can't be so, you must be wrong."

See you in a couple of months.
__________________
andreasduess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2014, 01:41 PM   #52
Rivet Master
 
m.hony's Avatar
 
2013 30' Classic
Greenwood , Mississippi
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 11,832
Ditto/what he said.
Sometimes the arguing/bickering makes my blood boil and I have to stay away for a while.
Why is it human nature to be critical and judgmental?
I'm convinced that if I bought a 3/4 ton diesel pickup I would still have critics. I have what I have and that's what I'm gonna have for a very long time. I will replace the tow vehicle before I replace the trailer, and that might be 20 or 30 years or all of them-
__________________
2013 Classic 30 Limited
2007 Silver Toyota Tundra Crew Max Limited 5.7 iForce
2006 Vivid Black Harley-Davidson Road King Classic
1999 Black Nissan Pathfinder LE
TAC #MS-10
WBCCI #1811, Region 6, Unit 56
Airforums #70955
m.hony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2014, 01:53 PM   #53
4 Rivet Member
 
cory_can's Avatar
 
2015 30' Classic
Calgary , Alberta
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 359
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreasduess View Post
I took a self imposed break from the forum because of the circular nature of the conversation. Coming back, I see nothing has changed.

People towing with minivans: "it works fine, no problems to report."

People not towing with minivans: "it can't be so, you must be wrong."

See you in a couple of months.

haha, funny because it's true
__________________
'15 Classic
'16 Ram 2500HD CTD 4x4 Limited w/ Air and Ramboxes
Instagram: cory_can
cory_can is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2014, 02:17 PM   #54
Vintage Kin
 
slowmover's Avatar
 
Fort Worth , Texas
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,592
Images: 1
There is about a half century experience with WD hitches. And good success in using them.


Sent from my iPhone using Airstream Forums
__________________
1990 35' Silver Streak Sterling; 9k GVWR.
2004 DODGE Cummins 305/555; 6-manual; 9k GVWR.
Hensley Arrow. 9-cpm solo, 15-cpm towing
Sold: Silver Streak Model 3411
slowmover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2014, 02:29 PM   #55
Rivet Master
 
dkottum's Avatar
 
2012 25' Flying Cloud
Battle Lake , Minnesota
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,716
And the most persistent and severe critic of our various tow vehicles does not tow an Airstream, easiest and most stable towing travel trailer on the market (that is subjective too, perhaps it could be objective, the internet must have a chart with some numbers somewhere).
__________________
Doug and Cheryl
2012 FC RB, Michelin 16, ProPride 1400
2016 Ram 1500 Laramie Crew Cab 4X4 Ecodiesel 3.92 axles

The Truth is More Important Than the Facts
dkottum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2014, 02:30 PM   #56
Rivet Master
 
MrUKToad's Avatar

 
2011 28' International
Chatham , Ontario
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,372
Images: 17
Blog Entries: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreasduess View Post
I took a self imposed break from the forum because of the circular nature of the conversation. Coming back, I see nothing has changed.

People towing with minivans: "it works fine, no problems to report."

People not towing with minivans: "it can't be so, you must be wrong."

See you in a couple of months.
That made me smile, Andy.

It put me in mind of the fellow in the campground at Gananoque who told me, without a flicker of a smile on his face, that I didn't ought to tow in the US with the minivan because it was illegal and I'd have it all impounded immediately. I didn't have the heart to tell him we were just on our way back from two weeks in Plymouth, Massachusetts.

See you in a couple of months
__________________

__________________
Steve; also known as Mr UK Toad

"You can't tow that with that!"

http://toadsoftowedhaul.com
MrUKToad is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sprinter one-ton towing/non-towing hwy mpg? gecko Tow Vehicles 18 08-02-2014 11:57 PM
Can 1982 280 Turbo Diesel tow a minivan? swanky Tow Vehicles 20 07-12-2009 09:20 PM
MPG difference between towing and not-towing? yiesyisyeno Tow Vehicles 11 09-01-2008 03:35 PM
Anybody towing with a minivan? beachbox Tow Vehicles 21 09-26-2007 04:56 PM
Good towing/Bad towing! ViewRVs Hitches, Couplers & Balls 5 03-09-2003 08:37 PM


Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:14 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.