Massaging the tow limits

[Glennmast]

What is your Jeep rated to tow? That is the best starting point for you because you can easily max out a minimal tow rating with water and supplies. I had no idea how much cans of soup weigh until I started paying attention. lol

[james.mileur]

Originally Posted by 1000Miles

I wanted to clarify something in my question about "massaging the tow limits". I think I threw out too much info and in fact it was a physics question. I wanted to understand how hitches worked in relation to the weight, and how performance can be maintained with an overweight trailer.

Hubby and I aren't in the market for a trailer--we're methodical, research-type of people. Just doing my homework before we go for it.

There just isn't any magic in towing physics, and you can find pictures/video of a bicycle towing an Airstream. Doesn't mean one should do it.

If not for yourselves, then for all the rest of us on the road, please change tow vehicle or buy a nice pop-up trailer that matches your jeep. Why show up on a dash cam youtube, rolling over and over down the highway sideways, as physics will enable, when your operating system proves inadequate for the environment you've entered?

Too many reasons to do it right the first time. Too many ways to fail when you operate outside the guardrails. Keep it safe out there.

[GM Airstream]

Here is the skinny on tow vehicles (TV)... The manufacture states that his vehicle can tow so much... the feds require him to not only calculate it but also go do it... thus the new rules on what a vehicle can LEGALLY tow under the law.

Now you go buy his vehicle... and ASSUME all the legal ram's... but what you put on or do to it is your doings... to which if you go put a hitch on it... the hitch manufacture is not responsable' for your action... YOU ASSUME... it because you own it.

Can the hitch manufacture say things to get you to buy theirs'... YES... you can pull a elephant with a mouse with the right gearing.. getting it stopped is another issue... but again its the buyer who is held accountable as the end user... and as such ignorance is no excuse when you get busted or stopped because you are under rated. It has been proven that the owner is the person that becomes the escape goat .. so to speak..and is left to suffer the loss when a event occurs. Even your insurance company will tell you they will not support you either... if your over the TV manufactures specs... and the TV warnt'y is no good either.. so you become on your own .. so to speak... both mechanically and repair wise...

More importantly... you will stress the TV.. breaking down on the road...and end up having costly repairs in the end... not being a happy camper... kinda thing..

So most of US buy TV's that are over rated (have more than needed) for the RV we tow... and now you know why...

the adventure contenues...

[Abraham]

Originally Posted by Al and Missy

While Andy at CanAm has many satisfied customers on here, I don't think he is an approved vehicle outfitter who has the authority to change the towing limits on a vehicle he modifies. A vehicle with his modifications may tow just fine but if the day ever comes that it is involved in an accident (at fault or not) my concern would be that if a quick review of the towed trailer and vehicle specifications by law enforcement or a third party's attorney indicated an overload condition, there would be consequences. Personally I am risk adverse and that's one risk I choose not to take.

In your case I would choose a "starter trailer" that was within the limits of the TV I had and upgrade both if I decided to continue, but that's just me.

Edit: I just checked for the towing capacity of the Patriot - only 1000#, 2000# properly equipped - so my suggestion would place severe limits on your RV experience.

Al

This quote is the best advice of any reply here.

The tow vehicle manufacturer and the 'lawyers' in any future incident will have a field day if you operate in ANY overload condition. Not to mention the safety of you and your family.
Please don't go above manufacturers load ratings. Any modifications will NOT increase the manufacturers load ratings. I usually try for a certain amount of 'overkill' in my tow vehicle. It just gives me a lot of confidence in all the awkward situations that will inevitably happen someday.

Hope you find a safe and proper solution to your camping plans.

Abe
Chevy 2500HD diesel PU (suitable for 13,000 lb trailer)
25 ft Airstream (less than 7000 lb and very good size for extended travel)
Reese dual cam sway control WDH.

[Barretta2]

As an owner of my dream Airstream who STARTED with an SOB, I second what Crispyboy says; RENT, don't buy a learner-trailer, til you know what works for you. MUCH cheaper in the long run...and selling an SOB can be a hassle.

[bono]

This is how they are doing this in Europe with inadequate tow vehicles

Originally Posted by HeadWest

Tow ratings are often based on marketing and other reasons outside of engineering. There are plenty of European cars that have reasonable tow ratings in other markets but when they are sold in the US they state they are not rated to tow. The US manufactures rather push people into more profitable trucks and SUVs by greatly limiting tow ratings on vehicles such as minivans.

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by 1000Miles

Hi Everyone!
My question is part of my research process, and in no way reflects the potential for doing/having done anything stupid!

The background:
Yesterday, my husband decided to buy a 2016 Jeep Patriot. Last fall, he hit a deer, which brought us down to one car, which worked (sometimes) because we both work from home (IT biz).

We don't own any trailer. Airstream is my dream, but we might start with a cheap "practice" trailer to be sure RVing is a hobby we want to pursue. As an aside, I think cleaning the black tank is preferable to potential bed bugs in "nice" hotels, so I think RVing is in our future.

So my question is in regards to some hitches/companies that offer the "magic" solution to a car that is not beefy enough to tow the trailer the owner wants. How does a company like Can-Am, for example, get a car & hitch to a place where they're safe to tow a trailer above their capacity?

Medieval architecture is a hobby of mine. I know that buttresses were put on buildings to push the energy away from the main structure so it didn't collapse upon itself. In that vein, I'm presuming that for some hitches, there is distribution of the trailer's weight that pushes some of the weight energy away from the TV and allows for both stability and going over tow capacity?

I recently saw a PT Cruiser towing a smaller Airstream in a video (not sure who was the hitch provider), and as a former PT owner, I found that too good to be true.

We are planning to get a beefier vehicle in the future, but more heavy duty comes with a cost that we couldn't afford as new biz owners, hence the Jeep.

Ideally, I'd like to get a starter RV (an no, not a Teardrop) and use the Jeep. But, I don't want to be snowed by any company's claims--hence why I'm picking your brains. We've all seen RV wipeouts on the side of the road; I don't want that to be me.

Thanks in advance
Jennifer

The Patriot is too small to tow an Airstream. It’s front wheel drive. You will destroy the transmission and it doesn’t have enough power.

I’ll let others add the “for the safety of others” and “please let us know your route” etc.

I used to tow a 19 with a Jeep, but it was a Grand Cherokee summit. Big difference.

[Bill M.]

"The manufacture states that his vehicle can tow so much... the feds require him to not only calculate it but also go do it... thus the new rules on what a vehicle can LEGALLY tow under the law. "

Are you sure about this? Are you referring to a California state law or federal law? And the new towing standards initiated several years ago are voluntary. The manafacture does not have to do the testing unless he advertises his towing capacity under that standard.

I have seen nothing that indicates that it is actually illegal to exceed the manufacturers advertised tow capacity in the US.

As to the European rig shown above, one thing is their much lower speed limit for towing and the lighter weight of the rigs.

[bono]

In most European countries the speed limit is 80km/h (50 mph). In California it is 55 mph. So it is not much lower, at least depending which states we are comparing.

Still most US folks think this is photoshop... this particular trailer is 36 ft long. I am towing 33 ft long trailer with SUV and I thought this is extreme... The only concern I had was the sway. I am managing this with ProPride. This guy is towing without any WDH / sway control.

Originally Posted by Bill M.

(...)

As to the European rig shown above, one thing is their much lower speed limit for towing and the lighter weight of the rigs.

[crispyboy]

Originally Posted by bono

This is how they are doing this in Europe with inadequate tow vehicles

I cannot believe there is so much trailer behind the rear axle of that trailer. Talk about an easy wag of the tail no matter what the tow vehicle.

[A W Warn]

Originally Posted by 1000Miles

Hi Everyone!
>>snip>>

So my question is in regards to some hitches/companies that offer the "magic" solution to a car that is not beefy enough to tow the trailer the owner wants. How does a company like Can-Am, for example, get a car & hitch to a place where they're safe to tow a trailer above their capacity?
<<snip<<

Thanks in advance
Jennifer

The magic is using specific vehicles that have certain properties (not just any vehicle); its capacities are under rated by the manufacturer and/or upgrading/adding equipment can change/enhance its capabilities. AND, the user is accepting and adapting to using the modified vehicle.

e.g.:
Vehicle with - low center of gravity, shorter distance between the hitch and rear axle, longer wheel base, larger/better than normal brakes, etc
Modifying - reinforcing the hitch to resist rotational forces created by trailer and gravity loads of the trailer tongue, adding engine/transmission cooling capacity, adding better tires/wheels, heavier shocks, extra springs, etc.
Driver/owner - accepts responsibility, liability, etc.

add edit: (almost any engine/vehicle will pull the trailer up a hill, worse case engine screaming while in a low gear and traffic backed up behind. The real problem is maintaining control while going down the other side)

[wulfraat]

Originally Posted by bono

This is how they are doing this in Europe with inadequate tow vehicles

Gotta love Europe. That trailer generates about 25lbs of tongue weight can’t tow it over 25mph or if a crosswind hits it starts to rock and roll!

[james.mileur]

But it looks good in the picture for that cross over SUV to pull around a parking lot slowly; anything else will be white knuckles.

[james.mileur]

http://www.airforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180758

Excellent links in this new thread for your review of towing hazards when outside the safe operating envelope.

[bono]

Amazing how people are thinking that the rest of the world is working the same as the US. Amazing to read reports from US tourist visiting Europe and looking at sedans towing 20-25 ft trailers through Alps (with surge brake, no weight distribution) - definitely 3/4 ton truck territory in the US. Maybe slower pace and common sense help Europeans to survive on the road?

[1000Miles]

Originally Posted by PKI

So, how does it work?

Lots to learn. Spend a lot of time reading the forum for information. When you understand the issues it is easier to decide on a solution that will not break the bank. Look at the Casitas, the T@B/T@G, the Oliver, the Rpod, and any others that trip your trigger. One idea is to car camp for a while. No investment, a chance to travel, and lots of opportunity to see what other folks are doing. Videos help a lot. Use them as a learning tool.

Welcome to the Forum. Enjoy the ride. The smiles are great. Pat

Thanks Pat...your breakdown is also what I was looking for.

Olivers are lovely, but far to get to, Scamp is closer: next door in Minnesota, and R-pods can be found everywhere, so yes, if we decided to turn the Jeep into a tow, we were considering these types.

[1000Miles]

Originally Posted by james.mileur

There just isn't any magic in towing physics, and you can find pictures/video of a bicycle towing an Airstream. Doesn't mean one should do it.

If not for yourselves, then for all the rest of us on the road, please change tow vehicle or buy a nice pop-up trailer that matches your jeep. Why show up on a dash cam youtube, rolling over and over down the highway sideways, as physics will enable, when your operating system proves inadequate for the environment you've entered?

Too many reasons to do it right the first time. Too many ways to fail when you operate outside the guardrails. Keep it safe out there.

James: I said it repeatedly, we're not getting an Airstream just yet, so I don't need to protect the rest of the world from me and my rogue Jeep. I stated in my posts we're may either get a starter (i.e. small, light & cheap) RV eventually, or a more powerful vehicle--just doing research. SHEESH!! Thanks for your condescending and less than useful "advice".

[james.mileur]

Jennifer, I went back and re-read your original post.

You are so correct; I looked at the glances you stated at exceeding limits and focused on crushing your temptations.

My bad; please forgive.

[davejay]

Hey you guys,
I know your looking into a unit. If you want to see an AS close by. Mine in its last phases of completion,for our trip to Montana this summer. I invite you out to just kind look at one of these things. You may want a motorhome as opposed to a trailor. Just a though. Anyway, there s the offer. Go out silver spring turn left at pilgrim road look to your left. You lol see our unit I'll give you a tour. DJ

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by GM Airstream

Here is the skinny on tow vehicles (TV)... The manufacture states that his vehicle can tow so much... the feds require him to not only calculate it but also go do it... thus the new rules on what a vehicle can LEGALLY tow under the law.

Now you go buy his vehicle... and ASSUME all the legal ram's... but what you put on or do to it is your doings... to which if you go put a hitch on it... the hitch manufacture is not responsable' for your action... YOU ASSUME... it because you own it.

Can the hitch manufacture say things to get you to buy theirs'... YES... you can pull a elephant with a mouse with the right gearing.. getting it stopped is another issue... but again its the buyer who is held accountable as the end user... and as such ignorance is no excuse when you get busted or stopped because you are under rated. It has been proven that the owner is the person that becomes the escape goat .. so to speak..and is left to suffer the loss when a event occurs. Even your insurance company will tell you they will not support you either... if your over the TV manufactures specs... and the TV warnt'y is no good either.. so you become on your own .. so to speak... both mechanically and repair wise...

More importantly... you will stress the TV.. breaking down on the road...and end up having costly repairs in the end... not being a happy camper... kinda thing..

So most of US buy TV's that are over rated (have more than needed) for the RV we tow... and now you know why...

the adventure contenues...

This is like a comedy routine. One untrue assertion after another.