Losing interest in my F250 - Land cruiser?

[OKStream]

Have 2017 F250 Platinum and 2016 Landcruiser. Have a 2018 Flying Cloud Bunk. Have three kids 10 and under.
F250 is such a better tow vehicle in so many ways.
You have to put your foot through the floor board to stop the Cruiser. Never towed with it but would not want to pull it up a pass or even brake the trailer down the pass.
Where you going to put firewood and other things needed for camping? Cruiser has no room behind third row for much at all.
I will always choose SAFETY over gas mileage any day. The 250 pulls the Cloud so easily. I almost forget it’s back there.
250 is not fun in city driving but when you take your whole family on serious trailer trips......the 250 is very hard to beat.

[Starlight Mike]

Don’t go backwards, you will regret it

[marcesq]

Originally Posted by OKStream

Have 2017 F250 Platinum and 2016 Landcruiser. Have a 2018 Flying Cloud Bunk. Have three kids 10 and under.

F250 is such a better tow vehicle in so many ways.

You have to put your foot through the floor board to stop the Cruiser. Never towed with it but would not want to pull it up a pass or even brake the trailer down the pass.

Where you going to put firewood and other things needed for camping? Cruiser has no room behind third row for much at all.

I will always choose SAFETY over gas mileage any day. The 250 pulls the Cloud so easily. I almost forget it’s back there.

250 is not fun in city driving but when you take your whole family on serious trailer trips......the 250 is very hard to beat.

Thank you - appreciate the input. Is the Land Cruiser just for fun or getting the family about town?

[marcesq]

Originally Posted by RadioCamp

Now that we're an all EV family, owning an ICE tow vehicle has really lost its luster. SO much maintenance, SO much fuel, smog checks, etc. Yuck. Our Land Rover Discovery has been a great tow vehicle for our 16' Bambi, a real beast, especially in difficult situations (blowouts, narrow wet mountain roads, steep driveways, etc.). But since it spends most of its time just sitting in the driveway, we've decided to sell it and just rent an F150 or F250 when we need one from Enterprise. Our hope is that this goes well and that even more renting opportunities will arise as time goes on. Maybe someday there will be an EV tow vehicle for rent!

Not a bad idea - I am going to see if renting an F250 is cheaper than my monthly payments....

[pteck]

Originally Posted by OKStream

<snip>
You have to put your foot through the floor board to stop the Cruiser. Never towed with it but would not want to pull it up a pass or even brake the trailer down the pass.
<snip>

Fair. My question would be whether you have your brake controller setup properly.

In my use, it takes no more effort to stop the LC with it hitched vs unhitched. The brakes on the trailer are responsible for stopping the trailer. Brakes on the car stop the car. Engine braking coming down hills is solid.

I find my LX to be plenty burly to haul up serious grades. And I've visited many of them. Yes, she'll have to downshift, that's what gassers do. I can always maintain the speed limit, accelerate, and pass as I'm willing to swill gas. The motor sings a mellow and turbine smooth song.

I'm on 33's, which disadvantages my gearing and brakes by ~7%, so stock should even be better in this regard.

Perhaps you can question my expectations for brakes and grunt. Just know that my other commuter car is a 650hp/650tq 4WD missile, that has some of the best brakes in all of auto-dom, by virtue of its engine placement. I also have raced cars on the track. I know what stability and performance feel like.

Many people are afraid and don't know how to access the performance of their vehicle. A motor that is revving, is no more being taxed, than a diesel that is forced to breathe deep with its turbo's spooled. On the contrary, the cylinder pressures experienced by a diesel are way way higher. But it was also built for that, just like a gasser is built to rev.

Which gets to my real point. Not necessarily directed at you.

I do believe that 3/4T vehicles innately have more margin of stability and performance under tow. It would make sense, for a vehicle that has higher load/tow capacities. I also get the sense that a lot of people don't know the nuances of dialing in a setup. Or they don't know how to take the handling feedback, and turn the right dials, to properly setup a rig. So a natural reaction is to go bigger to solve the problem. It's the equivalent of reaching for a big stick to solve a smaller problem.

Nothing wrong with that and it's a reasonable strategy. Also, different people have different ways, styles, and expectations in how they think they're setup should feel.

The problem comes when those that take a strategy, deludes those around them, that it might be the only way to solve a problem. There's a million ways to fry an egg. Each with its pro and cons. My way is not better than your way. It's just a different way because each one of us has different needs. So our trade space and evaluation of merits arrive at a different answer.

[DBinSD]

Originally Posted by jcl

You are trying to make it black and white when it isn't.

A body on frame design has advantages. It is cheaper to build; it is easier to make variations (ie multiple wheelbases on the same design frame); it can flex when necessary (great for a Jeep rock-crawling over large boulders); it is easier to mount different bodies on (whether they be different cab configurations or different load carrying bodies), and so on. For towing, it is also easier to attach a hitch receiver to in most cases. Just bolt or weld it on, respecting the manufacturer's cautions about drilling and welding on their frame design. It is interesting to note that when manufacturers using a traditional C channel ladder frame want to stiffen it up and make it stronger, they box it. My Expedition used that approach over the standard pickup (unboxed) frame. The latest GM offerings have moved to a boxed frame rail. Creating a closed 3-d structure for increased strength is exactly what a unibody design approach does, just on a different scale.

Unibody designs also have advantages. They have a higher up front design cost (due to complexity, but mitigated with ever more powerful computer design aids) but may use less steel, so lower materials cost for high volumes of production. They can be designed with crush zones more easily, for more passenger safety. They are stronger in torsion (twisting) so the vehicle can be made to handle better (wheel alignment doesn't change as much, suspension geometry is more controlled). They tend to be quieter. As they are wider than frame rails are typically spaced, the suspension can have a wider mounting stance, providing greater stability. All of the above features relating to rigidity result in better handling potential, which comes under the category of active safety (crash avoidance vs crash survival). If you want a better handling tv/trailer combination, it makes sense to start with a better handling tow vehicle.

The downside to a unibody for towing isn't that it can't tow, or that it isn't strong, it is that it is tougher to mount a hitch receiver. There is more thought required. It can certainly be done, but higher loads require thoughtful design approaches. My BMW was rated to tow to 3500 kg (7700 lbs) in some markets. The rear of the unibody contained what were essentially boxed frame rails, constructed out of the same steel as the body, and running longitudinally. The factory receiver replaced the bumper shock struts with rigid pieces that were inserted into those boxed rails, and bolted in three planes. It was incredibly strong. Installing that receiver took four hours or so, probably double that of a bolt on receiver on a pickup. withidl has posted here many times about his long term experience with an AS31, using that same tow vehicle (but with a V8). He took his X5 to Canam as I recall, when it first came out, to discuss strengthening. They looked at it, and said there was no need to do so. That turned out to be a good call.

For those of us without dedicated tow vehicles, vehicle choice includes consideration of the most frequent use of the vehicle. My vehicle is used 90% of the time without a trailer. I want the quietness, safety, handling, and so on, for that use. I want it to be capable of safely pulling the trailer. I accept that on a long climb on a steep grade I may run at 4000 rpm (not a worry with a 7000 rpm redline). I accept that I can't comfortably carry a generator in the rear (but have zero desire to do so). I know I am limited to 1400 or 1500 lbs on the tow vehicle. I suppose I could purchase a dedicated tow vehicle, a heavier truck, but it can't be parked where I live, so it would be in storage off site with the trailer. Seems a very expensive approach. If I have to purchase a truck and a trailer and keep both in storage, and they are only used in combination, why buy a trailer? Why not a motorhome?

The last body on frame vehicle I owned was a Morgan +4. No, I didn't tow with it. It was a mid nineties model, but based closely on a 1953 design. It flexed like crazy, especially over bumps in the road, but that was part of the charm. It had a sliding pillar front suspension. There was a foot operated valve on the floor near the clutch pedal, which diverted engine oil from the pressurized gallery near the crank, to spray on to the front suspension. That was a regular operating procedure. Not for too long each time, or you damaged the crank (and got more drips on the garage floor). But it worked. For a vehicle designed like that, a ladder frame was perfect. It fit. It was a matching level of technology.

I don't drive a ladder frame vehicle in day to day use. But if I wanted a heavy truck, it would have one. For the in between uses, it depends on what is important to you.

jcl,
again thank you for the explanation. Although not needed, as I agree with all you said and have experience with them.

I asked the question due to Slowmover stating the Unit-body was stronger and better to tow with yet, I could not find literature to back that up. I could to the contrary though as I posted previously.

Obviously opinion plays heavily on most "arguments" on here. I was looking for a bit more "proof" than opinion. Although experience does account for serious consideration.

[austreak]

G'day all,

I have been through this exact change. I have a 28 foot 72 Silver Streak here in Australia.

Originally towed by a 2008 V10 Toureg but for fear of transmission blowing up moved to a 2012 F250 which I used from new for 4.5 years. No need to explain how good the F250 was at moving the big van but I grew tired of the truck ride and was keen to get off road again.

I borrowed a mates Land Cruiser which had upgraded springs front and rear, hooked up the van and took it for a 30km test. I was seriously impressed with how it handled the van. The engine works harder and you work through the gear box more than the F250 but it is not anywhere near difficult for the car. I have travelled along the Great Ocean Road (seriously google Great Ocean Road Victoria) a couple of times and couldn't be happier with how it manages the van.

Hands down the F250 is a towing beast however...

When 98% of your driving is done with out the trailer hooked up I found the compromise was to buy the Cruiser. The Land Cruiser around town is a pleasure to drive, easy to soak up big k's (miles) and can take it off road into some seriously difficult to access, beautiful parts of Australia then fold the back seats down in 20 seconds and load most of a basket ball team into it.

My Land Cruiser is not stock, but a stock Land Cruiser with a weight distribution hitch &/or airbags &/or suspension upgrade will do the job well. These items are not very costly.

Interestingly if I am reading it correctly, in the US a LC is more expensive than the F250 (or equivalent). In Australia the F250 is around 25% more expensive due to conversion & shipping costs.

It isn't for everyone but what you are suggesting is your motivation was very similar to mine and I have no regrets.

[Streamside]

Google “2016 Landcruiser product information sheet”. Specs state gcwr of 15,585lbs, max towing of 8,100lbs. Curb wt 5815, gvwr of7385, payload at 1320. All pretty nice numbers and better than a lot of 1/2 tons. Have not been able to find numbers for front and rear gawr to be able to set things up at the cat scales. I’ve been contemplating the move to a late model LC for some time and if someone can find those axle numbers(I know there are no “axles” on a lc, independent suspension) I might just make that move myself. Shot wheelbase is some concern but probably mitigated with a ProPride and $20 at the Cat Scales.
Best of luck.

[marcesq]

Originally Posted by austreak

G'day all,

I have been through this exact change. I have a 28 foot 72 Silver Streak here in Australia.

Originally towed by a 2008 V10 Toureg but for fear of transmission blowing up moved to a 2012 F250 which I used from new for 4.5 years. No need to explain how good the F250 was at moving the big van but I grew tired of the truck ride and was keen to get off road again.

I borrowed a mates Land Cruiser which had upgraded springs front and rear, hooked up the van and took it for a 30km test. I was seriously impressed with how it handled the van. The engine works harder and you work through the gear box more than the F250 but it is not anywhere near difficult for the car. I have travelled along the Great Ocean Road (seriously google Great Ocean Road Victoria) a couple of times and couldn't be happier with how it manages the van.

Hands down the F250 is a towing beast however...

When 98% of your driving is done with out the trailer hooked up I found the compromise was to buy the Cruiser. The Land Cruiser around town is a pleasure to drive, easy to soak up big k's (miles) and can take it off road into some seriously difficult to access, beautiful parts of Australia then fold the back seats down in 20 seconds and load most of a basket ball team into it.

My Land Cruiser is not stock, but a stock Land Cruiser with a weight distribution hitch &/or airbags &/or suspension upgrade will do the job well. These items are not very costly.

Interestingly if I am reading it correctly, in the US a LC is more expensive than the F250 (or equivalent). In Australia the F250 is around 25% more expensive due to conversion & shipping costs.

It isn't for everyone but what you are suggesting is your motivation was very similar to mine and I have no regrets.

You brought back some good memories - I lived in Melbourne for 2 months in 2008 - I wish I could do it again with my Airstream! For comparison, a fully loaded 2017 F250 Platinum diesel gets close to $80k MSRP (from memory - didn't look it up). Mine was MSRP $76k and I paid less than $68k. A 2017 Land Cruiser in the US doesn't have options except for color - MSRP was $85k I think in 2017, and I'm told people don't usually get deals on them. Of course, sacrificing options, the F250 can be much cheaper.

Do you guys get some options/choices with Land Cruisers in Australia?

[pteck]

Streamside, here ya go:



The 200-series is IFS front end, solid axle rear.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by DBinSD

jcl,
I asked the question due to Slowmover stating the Unit-body was stronger and better to tow with yet, I could not find literature to back that up. I could to the contrary though as I posted previously.

Obviously opinion plays heavily on most "arguments" on here. I was looking for a bit more "proof" than opinion. Although experience does account for serious consideration.

You call it opinion, but I think it is more a decision on which of several competing criteria are more important to you. If in addition to towing you need to carry 2000 lbs of cargo, that is one end of the scale. If in addition to towing you value handling, shorter stopping distances, a more direct connection from the driver to the road, then that is another end of the scale. The former could best be handled by a body on frame vehicle, either a pickup or a van. The latter would probably best be handled by a smaller vehicle, one best matched to solo duty, but capable of towing without significant added wear and tear, and that vehicle would probably be a unibody design.

Frames aren't designed for towing. They are designed for carrying heavy loads (or off road flexibility). Sure, some who tow want to carry heavy loads, and that is fine, but the two requirements of load carrying and towing get conflated.

[Streamside]

Originally Posted by pteck

Streamside, here ya go:

Attachment 308945

The 200-series is IFS front end, solid axle rear.

Any idea the capacity difference between solid and ifs?

[Ozark10]

We used to tow our 23FB with our 2008 LC (200 series), using a Hensley Cub hitch. Gobs of horsepower and torque - no issues whatsoever. With the 23 we were able to stay within the load limitations of the LC. Got 9 - 11 MPG towing, 15 -16 otherwise. Wonderful vehicle, our second LC, and we still have it. Given the short wheelbase of the LC though, I would not recommend pulling your 30’ AS.
Our primary TV now is a 2016 Ram 1500 3.0 diesel. You may want to consider this vehicle. About 15 MPG towing, 23 average otherwise.

[Island Guy]

I towed my '27 with a Toyota Sequoia (same engine as the LC). Would average 7-8 mpg while towing vs. 12.6 mpg with my new 2017 F250 Powerstroke. The F250 has over 900 lb.ft. of torque, so no comparison in terms of towing power. The F250 is, however, much less user friendly in a crowded urban environment.

[jackbickel]

We have a Sequoia (2008) and tow a 25 ft Safari. The Land Crusier and Sequoia are pretty similar in mechanicals, dimensions, chassis, weight, etc. We have the V8 with 375 HP and have pulled our rig across the continental divide probable 15 times with no issues at all. We love the Sequoia as a tow vehicle and as my daily driver. It has the most comfortable seats and good suspension with lots of towing capacity. We get 11mpg towing (maybe 13 downhill with a tail wind). It's a Toyota so nothing breaks. Just change the (synthetic) oil, and the brake pads. Hope this helps.

[jackbickel]

Forgot to mention that our Sequoia gets 20 mpg on the highway when not towing. I did add airbags inside the rear springs and with 25psi, it raises the back 1 inch for a perfectly level floor in the Airstream. When not towing, we reduce the pressure to 5 psi and you don't know the airbags are there.

[wdkennedy]

I love Ford Trucks. Mine is a 1932 and is great around town. My last PSD was a 2003. I switched to Dodge Ram after haywire showed up on the PSD.
Now.... I love my Dodge Ram Mega Cab / Cummins. Big Powerful Truck. Fuel economy? Over-rated focus. Hey, I’m towing a $35K Airstream.
My suggestion.... Buy a Mega Cab at Dave Smith Motors in Kellogg, Idaho, on your way to Glacier National Park. Find a great SUV for around town. Something like a Honda Pilot / Acura MDX.

[gypsydad]

Hey, why not just keep your LC and get a 3/4T Diesel to tow your AS? No concerns about braking in mountains, stability issues, nor HP/Torque...plus you have a great platform to haul firewood, generator, bbq grill, kayaks, and if ordered properly, it can hold up to 6 people. When not towing, you have the best of both worlds driving around town with your LC.

Actually, I am bias toward the safety issue while towing after going thru 4 different TV's with my 25' AS's and now my 28'. But, I think with care, you can also have safe travels with a LC or other TV depending on TT size, if set up properly and you stay within vehicle specs. For me, that doesn't include modifying the original platform with some 3rd party expert, who likely would not show up in court should you have an accident and be questioned about exceeding your vehicle OEM limits.... What some of us believe may not suit your thinking. In the end, isn't that what it's all about? Safety, fun, and camping?.... Good luck with your decision...think this thread has lots of information; time to move on....

[pteck]

The axle capacities on a LC/LX are higher than a typical 1/2T.

But alas, I like shiny things. That's the most compelling reason I've got. Something I see you're drawn to too.

[pteck]

Originally Posted by Streamside

Any idea the capacity difference between solid and ifs?

Not sure that I understand the question?