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Old 12-06-2012, 05:22 PM   #85
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I use "progressive" to compare to "conservative." The progressive is a reformer and goes against convention. Progressive means change - in this case changing the established rules. In contrast, the conservative promotes the status quo and has no interest in new ideas, or reforming old wisdom.

Regressive means going backward. I can see how you might think that's the right term because "towing with cars" is an older idea. Regressives don't try new things. But here, no one is saying go back to a 72 Lincoln. The reform, if you will, is all about trying new things, like that Lexus SUV, or the Sienna or the Jaguar and so on.

Clearly the conservative establishment position is: Read the towing capacity from the manufacturer and follow it. That's a conservative, status quo position.
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Old 12-10-2012, 06:41 AM   #86
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No, but I've used a couple of SUV's. Have you?

Call it what you will, and I'm sure you will, but I believe the vehicle manufacturer's engineers know more about their products capabilities than any RV retailer.
The engineers aren't in charge, that should be obvious. If they were we'd see tow ratings that had more breadth and depth. And leave out no vehicle. Instead of the categorical exclusion of whole classes of vehicle. Have a look at what isn't said, and not just what is. When one leaves an argument to be defined wholly by the other the win is practically a default.

Yes, I've also towed with SUV's. Though not with the high-end Euro TD SUV's which appear to be state-of-the-art today much as I would like to try one.

I asked the question about using a car for towing as otherwise -- A/S TT and VPP hitch -- make it so easy to set up a car as an Airstream was designed to be towed by such.

If we exclude aerodynamic design from any/all TT's, then questions about weight have more prominence. But only then.


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Old 12-10-2012, 06:58 AM   #87
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The engineers aren't in charge, that should be obvious.
And you know this how? Do you work in the automotive industry either designing or marketing vehicles?

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I asked the question about using a car for towing as otherwise -- A/S TT and VPP hitch -- make it so easy to set up a car as an Airstream was designed to be towed by such.
Interesting, since you not only don't own an Airstream product, but tow with a 3/4 ton Dodge Diesel pickup.
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:10 AM   #88
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And you know this how? Do you work in the automotive industry either designing or marketing vehicles?



Interesting, since you not only don't own an Airstream product, but tow with a 3/4 ton Dodge Diesel pickup.
SteveH, take some time and go through SAE J2807. It is as exclusionary as it is "explanatory".

The TT I have is also designed to be towed by a car. The A/S advantage over it is the independent suspension and even lower ground clearance. The truck was due to business needs at the time. Now, as a fulltimer, the truck is the "garage" for the projects on TT and TV. But the truck is also spec'd/upgraded for longest life, highest mpg and best road performance (with more changes to come).

I wouldn't consider a TT that couldn't be pulled by a variety of vehicle types.

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Old 01-19-2013, 09:21 PM   #89
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We have set up several Grand's mostly on 25-34' Airstreams and several on SOB's. It is a very nice robust chassis. As long as you transfer the correct amount of hitch weight to the front wheels you will not be close to overloading it.
Andy,

I'm curious: are you going to the Detroit Auto Show this month and taking a look at some of the new tow vehicles? Would love to hear a report from you about what you see, if you go.

I am considering upgrading my 2002 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland to a 2014 Grand Cherokee, which comes with the new ZF 8-speed transmission and (as an option) the 420 pound-foot torque V6 EcoDiesel engine from Fiat. Looks like that combination would be a serious, but very comfortable, tow vehicle.
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Old 01-23-2013, 06:26 AM   #90
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I could not get to the press days this year because they conflicted with our Toronto RV Show. This happens every few years. I think the Diesel Grand will be an excellent tow vehicle. I would say it handles better than other vehicles with the same off road capability.

In their current formats I have a slight preference for the Durango as the wheelbase is longer with the same overhang. Also the Durango RT suspension is tuned for more highway stability at the sacrifice of pure off road capability.

What I am interested to see is how much fuel economy difference there will be between the 3.6 litre Gas and the diesel both with the 8 speed transmission. We have the 3.6 in our Caravan with a 6 speed and the fuel economy is quite remarkable.

With a little luck I may make it to the press days in Toronto next month. They are not as informative as Detroit but not nearly as busy either.

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Old 01-24-2013, 10:11 PM   #91
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With a little luck I may make it to the press days in Toronto next month. They are not as informative as Detroit but not nearly as busy either.

Andrew T
Thanks, Andrew. Looks like I will be able to make it to the Detroit auto show this weekend.

It will be interesting, later this year, to see real-life towing experiences and fuel economy with the 8-speed ZF tranny in the 2014 Grand Cherokees.
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Old 02-16-2013, 11:41 AM   #92
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I have been towing a 2008 23' CCD International for four years with a 2007 Grand Cherokee, 5.7L limited. The AS weighs 6000# loaded ( we usually have it loaded to around 5600#. With this set up we have had no problems pulling our AS up passes as steep as 12degrees. We do have a straight line Reese WD hitch. The issues you will want to consider. This set up has averaged about 11.3 mpg over about 20,000+ miles of towing at an average speed of 62-64MPH. In cooler weather we average as much as 13mpg. The MPG drops to around 9MPG at speeds over 65. The jeep has plenty of power but the gas tank is rather small We look for a gas station every 150 miles.
The mirrors on the jeep are useless when towing. We have tried several aftermarket mirrors and the McKesh are by far the best. I can install and remove each one in under 10 seconds. The mirrors do take a little effort to set up the first time, but once set, they work great. Do buy the auxiliary convex mirror. One tip. If wind noise from the nylon straps is an issue, just tie a shoe string in two places along the strap and the wind noise disappears. Sounds weird but it works. Tip 2- When stopped overnight, I remove the McKesh mirrors and stow them in a five gallon bucket.
The jeep/AS combo rides and drives like a dream. In strong side winds, I do tighten up the chain by one link and the wind problem goes away. I also carry an extra 5 gallon can of gas for piece of mind, since we cannot always find gas stations when we need them. It is beyond me why jeep does not come out with extendable towing mirrors and a larger gas tank. Otherwise, you have a near perfect tow vehicle. I am looking at a 25' AS and will probably start with towing it with the jeep.
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Old 02-17-2013, 07:48 AM   #93
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Greg,
I've been quite satisfied the CIPA (part #cip11700) towing mirrors on my 08 GC Diesel. They are not specified for the Grand Cherokee, but they fit perfectly - slip over the existing mirrors, are easily adjustable, and with no straps there is no noise, no vibration. Although black, they complement the styling very nicely.
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Old 02-17-2013, 08:16 AM   #94
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I think the Grand Cherokee would be a great tow rig for up to a 23. The 25 is a significant jump in tongue weight. I evaluated the Grand Cherokee last year when choosing a tow vehicle and went with the diesel x5 due to handling and MPG. This year they came out with the diesel GC, so it would have been a much harder choice. Now that I have my X5, I am finding it to be a challenge to find things like replacement rear bumpers that hold full size spare tires and a high lift jack. or a front winch bumper....

If I were to do it again, I would spend more time driving the GC before grabbing the X5. The X5 handled MUCH better than the GC, but if you go rock crawling you will miss the GC. Also, I think that the air suspension is required for good offroad capabilities,and if you have any old passengers, the GC is lower to get into.
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Old 02-17-2013, 10:59 AM   #95
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I have been doing homework on the 2014 Grand Cherokee since attending the Detroit Auto Show a few weeks ago (and talking to the Jeep staff at the show) and hanging out on <www.jeepgarage.org>. That site has hosted some interesting conversations this winter---as does this one---between owners of the X5 diesel, the Touareg TDI , and the JGC CRD diesel.

Even thought the diesel/turbo engine is a whopping $4,005 (invoice) upgrade over the V6 gas engine, I am pretty close to putting in the order on March 5, when Jeep orders for the diesel can begin. Will probably go with a Limited with the CRD diesel. I love my 2002 Jeep GC Overland, despite the lousy gas mileage, for my ski/fish/camp/winter-mobility adventures; and I am looking at keeping the 2014 for many years with the added benefits of improved towing and range.
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Old 02-18-2013, 08:54 PM   #96
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Interesting comment about the CIPA 11700 slip on mirrors. I think they were made for Fords. I have been bugging CIPA for at least four years to come out with a slip on mirror for Grand Cherokees and they tell me that they will not work on the GC mirrors. I never get a good explaination why not other than the slip ons somehow interfer with the GC mirrors. I did specifically ask about the 11700's and again were told by CIPA customer service that they would not work.
I know the McKesh mirrors look a little cumbersome but they really do work well for me and installation and removal is a snap. My old CIPA strap ons were terrible and the straps needed replacement every few months. The McKesh do not shake and blind spots are nearly eliminated. Thanks for the info about the CIPA 11700's.
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Old 02-18-2013, 09:44 PM   #97
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I am using these on my X5, likely work on the GC.

AERO 2 Towing Mirrors : Amazon.com : Automotive
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Old 02-19-2013, 04:16 AM   #98
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Has anyone concidered Aero Towing Mirrors? I use the round style and they work well.
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