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Old 01-27-2017, 04:31 PM   #41
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Accidents will be down to driver error. Just as it's always been. Usually overcorrection of steering. Past that no one cares.

A better question would certainly be which combined rig is more stable and why. Avoid the accident in the first place.

The stupid questions are always about "payload".


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Old 01-27-2017, 07:18 PM   #42
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Just because something is not illegal, does not mean its a good thing to do.
Agreed. And just because something is legal, does not mean it's a bad thing to do. Not sure how either of those help answer the question of whether something is legal, ie the title of the thread.

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Usually, its no fun towing when you are exceeding GVWR or tow rating, unless you try very hard to convince yourself.
I don't think we are discussing exceeding GVWR any longer. I could be wrong. But I don't disagree, the times I have personally had to exceed GVWR involved a lot of focus, to be safe, and were in very specific situations. Those situations didn't create risk for others.

I wonder what your basis is for describing the nature of other's experiences when exceeding tow ratings, while not exceeding GVWR.
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Old 01-27-2017, 08:04 PM   #43
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I think the gist is - no one has found anything definitive saying it's illegal. Unless I missed something...
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Old 01-27-2017, 08:55 PM   #44
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I had a similar discussion on Facebook last week, about the legality, or otherwise, of exceeding various ratings when towing.

There's a lot of myth and misinformation out there, and very few facts offered in arguments. Check State and Provincial laws and you'll find no reference to Tow Ratings. GCVWR is mentioned in some but it's a tough one to apply to privately owned vehicles as quite a lot don't have a listed GCVWR, mine included. No one has come up with an actual and verifiable case of a private RV owner being ticketed for exceeding Tow Ratings. GVW, axle and tire ratings could get you into trouble (a simple measurement of downward force) but RVs don't usually get stopped and weighed, and many private car owners would be surprised to realize that they can easily exceed their ratings just with a couple of big adults and some cargo in their vehicle. Fortunately they rarely get weighed, either, unless of course their back bumper is scraping the pavement!

Sean Woodruff has really highlighted the liability issue; ratings or no ratings, in the litigious world we occupy, the lawyers will be out to get you anyway. If you really wanted to avoid that eventuality then you'd never venture outside.

I say carry on towing. Concern yourself with being safe, both in setup and driving habits, and don't worry about the other guy's rig too much.
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Old 01-27-2017, 09:28 PM   #45
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I think the gist is - no one has found anything definitive saying it's illegal. Unless I missed something...
The problem is that laws have become more fluid in interpretation. Like you mention with civil court. Imagine for a moment you are traveling down the road pulling an Airstream with a 1000# tongue weight on a vehicle designed for 500# max weight. A car swerves out in front of you and you swerve miss them and your light front end does not respond normally you end up like the picture in the post only your swerving hit another vehicle and two kids were killed in the back of the hit car struck by your trailer----- I know, a stretch, but with the way laws are now, something could happen. MrUKToad and Sean have it right. Play it safe as much as possible. I am waiting to see what they do about the tiny houses people are building on wheels and putting on the road. Lookout, a chimney! I saw one going down the road and it reminded me of the Beverly Hillbillies show though not a jalopy.
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Old 01-28-2017, 09:45 AM   #46
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OTOH, (you know thereís always another hand,...) way back in the day, a friend of mine drove a Buick Skylark. He was a big guy, and married a big girl, and they got bigger together. I recall his frustration that his car was always in the shop with something wrong with the running gear. ď *a-hem* Bro,... Every time you two take Grandma to the grocery store, youíre 400 lbs over max carrying capacity of your car. Just sayiní...Ē Mostly he drives minivans since then. Itís not uncommon to go over capacity on many vehicles.

On the other other hand, I have serious misgivings with the new SAE J2807 standards. In 2011 Toyota/Lexus adopted SAE J2807 standards across their product lines (other truck makers have dragged their feet, but are coming around). Toyota surrendered the judgement of their trucks to SAE. Consequently some of their vehicles had their capacity numbers downgraded as the bar was raised. 2008-2010 Sequoia GCVWR is 16,000, with towing capacity of 10,000. 2011-present SAE J2807 standards have reduced GCVWR to 14,000 and towing to 7,400. There were zero changes to hardware to reduce the numbers.

Iím not sure my truck needs SAE J2807 ratings. Toyota engineers originally said my truck will tow 10K. But now they say I can only tow 7400 - if I plan to sprint 11 miles up a 12% grade with the AC full blast in 100 degree weather. But what if I DON'T WANT to fly up desert mountains! Canít I just visit the desert during cool season, and take it a little slower?? It seems Toyota has abandoned what is safe and reasonable for Muscle Beach bragging rights. Does this change my legal status?

Read more here:
http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/tow...-the-standard/

On the other,... ...do we have another hand?? I find Iím agreeing with the video guy (regardless his lame camera work). I can well imagine enhancements to make my truck do its job better. But itís foolhardy to think changing the tires, or any other single item on an S-10 pickup will give it the ability to pull a 40í fifth wheel. Even if, in addition to larger tires, we reinforce the hitch, add a transmission cooler, upgrade the brakes, bore out the engine, add leaves and air bags, extend the mirrors, give it a paint job, upgrade the sunvisors, and add refrigerated cup holders, it still is folly. Likewise pulling a Land Yacht with a minivan is folly, regardless how much air you put in the tires. Itís a good thing we are masters of self-delusion otherwise none of this would be possible. Denial is my happy place.
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Old 01-28-2017, 10:11 AM   #47
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I think the gist is - no one has found anything definitive saying it's illegal. Unless I missed something...
Ditto!
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Old 01-28-2017, 11:18 AM   #48
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Alluminati - #46 sounds like it was authored by Tevye

There comes a point in "Fiddler on the Roof" where he decides, "No! There IS no other hand!"

And on that note....

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Old 01-28-2017, 04:45 PM   #49
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On the other other hand, I have serious misgivings with the new SAE J2807 standards. In 2011 Toyota/Lexus adopted SAE J2807 standards across their product lines (other truck makers have dragged their feet, but are coming around). Toyota surrendered the judgement of their trucks to SAE. Consequently some of their vehicles had their capacity numbers downgraded as the bar was raised. 2008-2010 Sequoia GCVWR is 16,000, with towing capacity of 10,000. 2011-present SAE J2807 standards have reduced GCVWR to 14,000 and towing to 7,400. There were zero changes to hardware to reduce the numbers.

I’m not sure my truck needs SAE J2807 ratings. Toyota engineers originally said my truck will tow 10K. But now they say I can only tow 7400 - if I plan to sprint 11 miles up a 12% grade with the AC full blast in 100 degree weather. But what if I DON'T WANT to fly up desert mountains! Can’t I just visit the desert during cool season, and take it a little slower??
Of course you can just slow down.

I don't think Toyota are warranting that your truck can safely tow that weight. They would have a hard time doing so, since they aren't in control of the many variables involved.

What they are warranting is that when tested according to the SAE standard, the truck passed the test. This is more of a consumer protection issue, than a safety issue, let along a legal issue. It is to ensure that you as a consumer can compare the Toyota rating to a rating from brand x, and evaluate them with a reasonable expectation that one rating means the same rating as the other manufacturer's rating, ie that nobody is stretching the numbers more than their competitor is doing.

As mentioned above, this is still just the manufacturer's tow rating.

This thread started off being about the legal issues and potential liability involved in exceeding GCWR. I think there is general agreement on the legal issues and potential liability issues relating to exceeding published GVWR, axle ratings, and tire ratings, although many will rightly point out there is little to no enforcement for non-commercial operators.

If your vehicle has the GCWR included on the FMVSS sticker on the door jamb, then use that one. If it doesn't, then from a legal perspective, you would be subject to the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Standards (if you were a commercial operator). They updated their definition of GCWR in 2014. Here it is, relevant from a legal standpoint:

Quote:
390.5
Gross combination weight rating (GCWR) is the greater of:
(1) A value specified by the manufacturer of the power unit, if such value is displayed on the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard (FMVSS) certification label required by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, or
(2) The sum of the gross vehicle weight ratings (GVWRs) or the gross vehicle weights (GVWs) of the power unit and the towed unit(s), or any combination thereof, that produces the highest value.
Exception: The GCWR of the power unit will not be used to define a commercial motor vehicle when the power unit is not towing another vehicle.
Full Text

And again, this only applies if you are a commercial operator. So if you were a commercial operator, then your legal GCWR would be your 7,000 TV plus 10,000 trailer for 17,000 lbs.

This shows the absurdity of applying legal weight or significance to manufacturer's tow ratings. You should always work to be safe. But a singular focus on GCWR has little to do with that, and has even less to do with any potential liability created by GCWR regulations for commercial operators.
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Old 01-28-2017, 04:53 PM   #50
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There comes a point in "Fiddler on the Roof" where he decides, "No! There IS no other hand!"

And on that note....

There is always another hand
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Old 01-28-2017, 05:01 PM   #51
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I think the gist is - no one has found anything definitive saying it's illegal. Unless I missed something...
Leaving aside state laws that reference manufacturer's tow ratings, which may exist and would be regional by nature, I think it is actually more than you say.

There are links and text provided above that actually show it is not illegal, since the legal GCWR in a regulatory sense is the sum of the GVWRs of each of the TV and trailer. This is different than the manufacturer's GCWR, which is valuable info, and worth knowing, but not the basis of regulations.
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Old 01-29-2017, 05:30 AM   #52
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I found it hilarious that while the dude was rambling on and on about how he beefed up his F250 and laying on the guilt trip about how we should think of others on the road not just ourselves, he blows through a series of red lights.
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Old 01-29-2017, 05:57 AM   #53
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I found it hilarious that while the dude was rambling on and on about how he beefed up his F250 and laying on the guilt trip about how we should think of others on the road not just ourselves, he blows through a series of red lights.


Well there's that too
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Old 01-30-2017, 08:22 AM   #54
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My 2017 ram states it has a tow rating of 17150 , my as is around 9000, and it is stock.
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Old 01-30-2017, 10:22 AM   #55
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My 2017 ram states it has a tow rating of 17150 , my as is around 9000, and it is stock.
What's really cool about that is I could get a larger Ram, pull two of our Airstreams and still be "legal" as described in this thread. This has me thinking about the extra storage space we could have.
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Old 02-01-2017, 08:42 PM   #56
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Talked with my local highway patrol. Asked first about tow length.at the time I pulled a \16 ft lowe boat behind a 73 31' .Did not know better at the time at least the frame had been specifically rebuilt for it by previous owner. He said I would be over length but would only be ticketed if stopped for another violation or involved in an accident. Asked him recently about wt and towing beyond factory specs. He said if in an accident even if not my fault if I am over specs no matter the modification to the vehicle I could be charged with contributing to the accident. Hi example was if someone pulled out in front of me could I possibly have stopped sooner. Also talked with my insurance agent and he said that if I knowingly exceed limits they could void my policy. They would pay for the car or what I hit but not mine. I am insured by one of the largest co.the highway patrol and ins Co Go by factory specs for your vehicle not by what you have modified it to. The factory specs cannot be changed by air bags or hitches.max WTS that a TV will handle are determined by axle strength, frame size,engine and vehicle size and WT. No matter what a hitch co or trailer salesman or car salesman says the factory specs are the Bible for officials. If in doubt check with your local HP ,ins Co and state law.
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Old 02-01-2017, 08:49 PM   #57
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Talked with my local highway patrol. Asked first about tow length.at the time I pulled a \16 ft lowe boat behind a 73 31' .Did not know better at the time at least the frame had been specifically rebuilt for it by previous owner. He said I would be over length but would only be ticketed if stopped for another violation or involved in an accident. Asked him recently about wt and towing beyond factory specs. He said if in an accident even if not my fault if I am over specs no matter the modification to the vehicle I could be charged with contributing to the accident. Hi example was if someone pulled out in front of me could I possibly have stopped sooner. Also talked with my insurance agent and he said that if I knowingly exceed limits they could void my policy. They would pay for the car or what I hit but not mine. I am insured by one of the largest co.the highway patrol and ins Co Go by factory specs for your vehicle not by what you have modified it to. The factory specs cannot be changed by air bags or hitches.max WTS that a TV will handle are determined by axle strength, frame size,engine and vehicle size and WT. No matter what a hitch co or trailer salesman or car salesman says the factory specs are the Bible for officials. If in doubt check with your local HP ,ins Co and state law.
Thanks for sharing this info.
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Old 02-01-2017, 08:57 PM   #58
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This is what is called FUD. Fear, uncertainty, doubt.

It would be helpful to understand more about this hypothetical situation.

Ask your LOE contact what law would someone be charged with breaking in your jurisdiction for towing over the manufacturer's recommendation. Not the weight limits, but the tow rating. Remind him that you would be within the DOT defined GCWR, even though you are not a commercial operator.

If he/she responds that you can be charged simply because it was felt that you caused the accident, fine. Ask if you will then be protected from ever being charged with contributing to an accident if you simply tow within the manufacturer's recommendations.

If the response is you could have stopped sooner, ask if going a few mph over the limit, having tires with less than optimal tread remaining, installing aftermarket brake pads, experiencing the distraction of having the radio on, etc, are all similar examples.

Case law examples would be good.
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Old 02-01-2017, 09:14 PM   #59
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FUD and baloney. This stuff always shows up in these discussions, disrupts the conversation and our chance to learn something useful, and is never substantiated.
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Old 02-02-2017, 05:21 AM   #60
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FUD and baloney. This stuff always shows up in these discussions, disrupts the conversation and our chance to learn something useful, and is never substantiated.
In the commercial world every state has a different set or rules, be safe..
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