Insurance coverage if exceeding rated tow weight

[IanPoulin]

Originally Posted by AirFoiler

So I called my insurance company, USAA, and asked them a test question:

When did USAA start RV coverage? When I called them last year, they forwarded me to Progressive.

[Jammer]

The internet is full of excogitations on importance (or not) and bedrock solidity (or rubbery elasticity) of manufacturer's towing and gcwr ratings. All I can say for sure is that I've seen, over the years, some unsafe combinations that followed the rules and some safe combinations that didn't.

There are even people who say you have to derate the manufacturer's tow ratings according to some set of rules they've dreamed up.

I'm pretty sure, though, that for noncommercial towing of recreational vehicles, there is no jurisdiction in the U.S. where the manufacturer's GCWR or towing capacity has the force of law. No different than the manufacturer's recommended tire size or brand of transmission fluid.

[EarlM]

My thoughts on this subject why would anyone want to exceed the vehicle manufacturers tow rating. the first person to arrive at the scene of a potential accident will be you!

it just doesn't make sense to buy a tow vehicle that is not rated to tow the actual load in my opinion.

I guess some folks want to tow big loads with small vehicles and hopefully nothing will go wrong but if you modify the vehicle and you injure someone other than your family I am sure a ambulance chaser may be paying you a visit. I personally would not want to trust my families safety to someone modifying vehicles for profit.

[rostam]

I also find it ironic that some of the same folks who ignore the user manual when it comes to tow rating specification, religiously follow the same manual for maintenance intervals, engine oil type, filter type, etc.

[boondockdad]

one things certain, and that's eventual government regulation

and we'll have all the hair-brained RV'ers towing with ridiculously outclassed vehicles to thank

nanny-gubmint to the rescue

[AirFoiler]

Originally Posted by IanPoulin

When did USAA start RV coverage? When I called them last year, they forwarded me to Progressive.

I'm not sure. At least by late January 2015 when I called them for coverage.

[SteveSueMac]

Originally Posted by AirFoiler

I have read posters who have claimed that exceeding the TV manufacturer's maximum tow weight rating will cause problems with insurance but I didn't find any posts with specific data.



So I called my insurance company, USAA, and asked them a test question:



"If I was stupid enough to tow a 10,000 lb trailer behind a vehicle only rated to tow 1,000 lbs, would you cover any and all accidents caused by my stupidity?"



The USAA insurance person said she needed to check, put me on hold for 15 minutes, and gave me an answer I wasn't expecting:



1. USAA will cover liability and damage to my tow vehicle and trailer resulting from any accident with either vehicle even if the direct cause was exceeding the towing capacity.



2. However, USAA would not cover any direct damage to my vehicle caused by the excessive tow weight such as bending the hitch.



Note that USAA insures both my TV and trailer.



I would be curious if others have asked similar questions of their insurance companies.



I'm hoping to keep this thread focused on sharing data and not opinions. Thanks.

I think there are a few things to consider with your thoughtful post. While I work at an insurance carrier, the answers I'm sharing here are not the opinions of my employer and I'm not speaking on their behalf...

1) what kinds of "problems with insurance" are we talking about? Denying coverage for exceeding tow ratings? Highly doubtful as you heard from USAA. However, if you could have reasonably foreseen that exceeding tow ratings could contribute, you will most likely be dropped or have your rates driven through the roof. While there may be no insurance problem, that doesn't mean you aren't subject to civil suits for damages caused by alleged negligence. Then again - there are lots of civil suits opened every day, that doesn't mean they have merit.

2) Sharing real data is a challenge. It's said that if you've seen one claim, you've seen ONE claim. It is practically impossible to speculate on exactly what might happen because the facts of every case are unique to that case and ultimately determine what claims are paid or denied, whether there is criminal negligence or the possibility of civil liability - and each jurisdiction can have local nuances (you may be based in one state and think you understand how a decision would be made but that can be very different at your destination in another state and even different in the states you pass through to get to your destination).

3) I am not aware of any criminal statutes in any states for drivers of RVs that exceed tow vehicle published limits (that doesn't mean they don't exist but if they do I'm not aware of them) so the exclusion about being in the act of a crime wouldn't apply either (again, criminal vs civil standards are two very different things).

In short - with the myriad of caveats that apply since the facts will determine the outcome - your claim most likely would be paid and your insurer would most likely defend you in a liability case. It would likely be your last claim with that carrier and your ongoing cost of insurance with any carrier is going to be exceedingly high.

Whether that's the most important stuff to think about in terms of adhering to manufacturer recommendations may be a good topic for a different discussion.

[Stefrobrts]

Do whatever makes you happy. If you feel confident you are covered by your insurance, and you are confident your rig is set up safely, then you're all set. I'm not sure what is intended to be gained in these endless debates. No one is forcing you to tow with an under-rated tow vehicle.

I am exceeding the towing capacity of my vehicle, and I believe I have a very safe combination, properly setup, and I do not lose any sleep over it, neither should you.

[SilverEagle6]

In the event of a major accident while exceeding tow limits, you likely will worry less about your insurance claim for repairs, than the likely lawsuit that will result for exceeding limits. Know all your rigs limits to include hitch and tow bars as well as TV and trailer. If you choose to ignore the limits, then it's on you.

I also have USAA and they cover my trailer under my auto policy with Progressive. After a recent claim, it was handled by Fleetwood. Regardless, my policy is with USAA.

[Wingeezer]

Originally Posted by MrUKToad

You've summed it up nicely, jcl.

I fully understand why people want to steer clear of litigious insurance companies and if sticking to the manufacturer's tow recommendations helps make them feel more comfortable then that's fine. There isn't a whole lot of available evidence about insurers taking hapless tow vehicle owners to the cleaners so, until I hear otherwise, I shall be taking the advice of my insurers and staying within the law rather than be concerned about things that are pure speculation.

Agreed, JCL's comments certainly sound reasonable.

But when he makes reference to axle loading, GVW, - and I would imagine GCVW would fall in the same category - are you saying that your TV & trailer trailer combination do comply in these areas?

If so, then I agree your assessment sounds reasonable, and so maybe manufacturer's tow ratings (3500# for Sienna?) might only be relevant if your vehicle were still under warranty, and it were an issue relating of a warranty claim rather than an insurance claim.

I'm still not entirely sure though, and I guess that's why I fall the category you describe (i.e. wanting to feel more comfortable - maybe I worry to much about these things!)

Brian.

[mefly2]

Why would you want to exceed the recommended towing capacity ...other safety issues come in to paly ...??

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Wingeezer

Agreed, JCL's comments certainly sound reasonable.

But when he makes reference to axle loading, GVW, - and I would imagine GCVW would fall in the same category - are you saying that your TV & trailer trailer combination do comply in these areas?

I can't comment on another's specific weights, but my original comment did not include GCVWR. It isn't applicable to RVs where I live, register, and insure my vehicles. GVWR for each of the TV and trailer, yes, but not a combined GVWR. YMMV.

Jeff

[jcl]

Originally Posted by mefly2

Why would you want to exceed the recommended towing capacity ...other safety issues come in to play ...??

Here is one example. My vehicle is rated to tow X lbs in other geographic markets, places where the manufacturer offers a hitch rated to tow X lbs. In my market they only offer a lighter hitch and so state Y lbs. The vehicles are identical, down to cooling system, rear axle ratio, and so on.

With the installation of a heavier duty hitch, I am comfortable towing at the limits prescribed for that heavier duty hitch, even though I had to modify the vehicle by installing a heavier hitch. For decades, installing a custom hitch was pretty standard practice. No other modifications required in this case, whether to cooling systems, or otherwise. Also, the rig is within axle loads, tire loads, and GVWR loads published in this market.

Why do it? Because it provides the vehicle I want, without buying a dedicated tow vehicle. Should everyone do it? Not if they want to carry much more weight in the TV than I do and thus can't fit into the weights described above. We all have different requirements. But it works for me. And I feel safe.

The manufacturer of this vehicle also says I should only use their branded engine oil, buy only OE parts, have all service done at their dealer, and so on. Those are manufacturer recommendations that relate to safety and vehicle maintenance standards, and I made a judgement in each case as to whether I will follow them, as the situation dictates.

Jeff

[AirFoiler]

Originally Posted by Jammer

The internet is full of excogitations on importance (or not) and bedrock solidity (or rubbery elasticity) of manufacturer's towing and gcwr ratings.

Wikipedia has a great write up on the psychology of risk perception (Risk perception - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). We humans tend to misjudge risk. My background is in safety engineering (particularly in aircraft avionics). There are straightforward processes for focusing engineering investment on the greatest peril in order to minimize the resulting risk of the finished system. Inaccurate perception of risk is the enemy of safer systems. Commercial airplane manufacturers have achieved very safe systems by focusing on actual risks instead of perceived risks. Not that the automotive industry generally does not yet embrace this level of safety engineering (in my experience because of perceived expense and lack of knowledge). Perhaps if the FAA folks hung out more with the DOT folks. :-)

I recognize that insurance is not made cheaper or more expensive by actual risk. In my understanding insurance pricing is guided by claim history. Risk history is a reasonable estimate of actual risk but is not the same as estimated actual risk.

I am overjoyed to see that several insurance industry experts have chimed in. Now if we just find an retired insurance actuary who is sitting in his or her Airstream and wants to help us out.

What I would dearly love to avoid is not just people's perception of risk but the rumor of risk (a perception of risk caused by someone else's implication of risk, ug).

Originally Posted by Jammer

I'm pretty sure, though, that for noncommercial towing of recreational vehicles, there is no jurisdiction in the U.S. where the manufacturer's GCWR or towing capacity has the force of law. No different than the manufacturer's recommended tire size or brand of transmission fluid.

I suspect this might be true. It's hard to prove a negative but I did search through the code of several states (Utah, Virginia, and Maryland) to find any related law and could find nothing about tow capacity or GCWR for RVs.

[AirFoiler]

Originally Posted by MrUKToad

My insurer was concerned only that both tow vehicle and trailer were insured and that I complied with all the relevant laws in the operation of said tow vehicle and trailer.

Thank you! A wonderful datapoint.

[AirFoiler]

Originally Posted by jcl

Here is one example...

Why do it? ...

You hit the nail on the head. In my case with the X5d's U.S. rating of 6,000 lbs and European rating of 7,700 lbs.

And I picked up my X5d from the BMW South Carolina factory where all X?'s are made for the world (70% are exported). The line literally has a U.S. left side drive followed by a European right side drive. It was very impressive. And I left with confidence that there are no structural differences between the U.S. and European X vehicles. Hitches are a dealer mounted and are not similar.

My hitch is a masterful collection of steel and elegant welds from Canam RV. :-)

[dznf0g]

"The manufacturer of this vehicle also says I should only use their branded engine oil, buy only OE parts, have all service done at their dealer, and so on. Those are manufacturer recommendations that relate to safety and vehicle maintenance standards, and I made a judgement in each case as to whether I will follow them, as the situation dictates."

True, there are "recommendations", as you describe relative to oil, etc., but that shouldn't be confused with owner manual statements like "Never exceed...". Those are definitive statements, no recommendations.

The english language is still definitive, regardless of those how would try and change it like, "it depends what the definition if 'is' is".

[SteveH]

A short "read" for everyone here: Towing The LIne

If it comes to litigation and the fact that weight distribution was, or was not being used, don't you thing that actual towing capacity will have already been considered?

[rostam]

Originally Posted by AirFoiler

You hit the nail on the head. In my case with the X5d's U.S. rating of 6,000 lbs and European rating of 7,700 lbs.

And I picked up my X5d from the BMW South Carolina factory where all X?'s are made for the world (70% are exported). The line literally has a U.S. left side drive followed by a European right side drive. It was very impressive. And I left with confidence that there are no structural differences between the U.S. and European X vehicles. Hitches are a dealer mounted and are not similar.

My hitch is a masterful collection of steel and elegant welds from Canam RV. :-)

This issue has been discussed to death yet it is still brought up in these conversations.

The vehicle may be the same but the trailers are certainly not the same. European trailers have a different design in that the axle is more froward, hence they have a very light tongue weight (300# tongue weight for a 28" trailer is normal, In North America a similar trailer has over 1000# tongue weight). The Euro trailers are also narrower (less wind resistance), are pulled at a lower speed limit and they don't have the Southwest heat or the Rockies in Europe. Travel distances are also shorter. Give all this SOME vehicles are rated slightly higher in Europe (BTW, my Mercedes is rated the same in Europe and North America).

So, unless you are pulling a narrow European camper, with 300# tongue weight, at 45 MPH, mostly on flat lands, with moderate temperatures, the Euro ratings do not apply to you.

Also, there are other regulations in Europe which you do not talk about. Someone mentioned the TV must b 15% heavier than the trailer. This makes the tow rating a BMW X5 actually lower in some European countries.

Finally, hitches are not dealer mounted. They are installed at the factory.

[SteveH]

When I was a very young teenager while teaching me how to drive, a wise old man once told me, "you can do anything you want to in a car as long as you don't get caught".

Relating to the subject of this thread, you can tow anything with anything as long as nothing bad happens.