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Old 07-28-2014, 10:35 AM   #29
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Urea has no affect on fuel economy....the DPF does, and they did not come onboard at the same time. So you can have a DPF truck without DEF (urea), but not the other way around.
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Old 07-28-2014, 10:48 AM   #30
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I am going.to be honest, between my father and I owning Ford, Ram , and Chevy Diesels right now, I am way sour on the Fords and Chevy's.

There may be reasons to own them, but overall economy ain't one of them. They are too expensive to keep running in hard service, and downtime just sucks.
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Old 07-28-2014, 10:57 AM   #31
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Yeah DEF is like this:

25000 miles per year @ 14 mpg towing and 3 percent DEF would be 54 gallons of DEF or $270 at $5 per gallon for DEF.
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Old 07-28-2014, 12:06 PM   #32
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I think that the emission control standards of the 90s were more than clean enough for gas and diesel, and the stuff done since then is a net looser.....

But with that said,,,, I seriously doubt that modern diesel engines are easier on the environment than modern gas engines.
That just isn't true. The new after combustion systems on the new clean diesels are much better but more expensive. New diesels yield more power and higher efficiency than previous pollution control prior to utilizing the DEF system.

New Gasoline engines produce 10 times more harmful particle emissions than new Diesels. Gasoline engines are also a much bigger source of secondary organic aerosols than new Diesels.

In addition, Diesels can use Biofuels which produces less CO2 emissions.

I don't understand a lot of this complaint about the new Diesels. Other than cost there is no doubt that the modern Diesel with modern after combustion filtering is a big improvement over the noisy, dirty Diesels of the 90's.
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Old 07-28-2014, 12:06 PM   #33
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does this mean that my honda element with an engine that sounds like a golf cart can tow a 30 ft trailer? That would be fabulous. ;-)
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Old 07-28-2014, 12:27 PM   #34
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InfoGraphic: Actual Fuel Economy of Diesel vs Gas Towing

The power would have come without the new emission control stuff.

What isn't making the press right now is how many people are burning to death because of the thermal reactors that they call particulate traps.

The problem besides safety is that diesels with this added on crap are not near as reliable, and are very expensive to keep running.

I would be so bold as to ask for a source on gas engines making ten times the particulate matter as a diesel. (As if large particulates really add much to pollution)
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Old 07-28-2014, 11:19 PM   #35
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These DEF based diesels are the most efficient, cleanest burning engines around, the facts abound.

Said engines in use in Marine and heavy tow rig vehicles with less issues (Frightliner & Volvo) as well as used connected to generators powering trains and cargo ships....

The only more efficient, cleaner burning power plant is a modern turbine engine...

Gas engines have incorporated some of the tricks Diesel engines have made mainstream (TFSI, turbos & Intercoolers, etc) thus why Fords EcoBoost, Audi\VW 2.0 TFSI engines, etc. are so great, but the diesels are still better....
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Old 07-28-2014, 11:34 PM   #36
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I have a stack of repair bills that say these diesels have some expensive problems that gas motors don't have so much.

I have a fleet with some of both, in my experience, in the long run, the Ford and Chevy diesels are expensive to own. The Dodges are not prone to so many problems, but that particulate filter ain't cheap to maintain.
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Old 07-29-2014, 07:30 AM   #37
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The soot catchers and DEF systems are down stream of the engine and do nothing to aid in efficiency. They would have the opposite effect. They are also two more systems to fail and maintain. The modern turbo charged gas engines are getting close to diesel in efficiency with less complication.

Perry


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These DEF based diesels are the most efficient, cleanest burning engines around, the facts abound.

Said engines in use in Marine and heavy tow rig vehicles with less issues (Frightliner & Volvo) as well as used connected to generators powering trains and cargo ships....

The only more efficient, cleaner burning power plant is a modern turbine engine...

Gas engines have incorporated some of the tricks Diesel engines have made mainstream (TFSI, turbos & Intercoolers, etc) thus why Fords EcoBoost, Audi\VW 2.0 TFSI engines, etc. are so great, but the diesels are still better....
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Old 07-29-2014, 07:41 AM   #38
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Again, DEF system has no affect on efficiency nor fuel economy.
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Old 07-29-2014, 10:13 AM   #39
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Again, DEF system has no affect on efficiency nor fuel economy.
Well in a way the DEF system does have much to do with efficiency and fuel economy.

I say this because I own a 2009 Dodge with the dreaded Blue Tec emission system (designed by daimler). This system does not use DEF for after treatment of exhaust so my truck will go into regeneration much more often than the newer diesels with the DEF system. Regeneration means more fuel consumed to burn off the soot - loss of efficiency and fuel economy.
I have to watch how the truck is driven - not too much grocery getting or idling. This has a tendency to clog the DPF quicker. DEF trucks can tolerate more idling and grocery getting.
Also the Blue Tec system pushes a lot more EGR - exhaust gas (SOOT) into the engine - this in turn puts much more soot into the turbo and exhaust system. The Blue tec system does ok when they are worked hard on the highway but will never achieve the fuel mileage of the DEF trucks (unless you delete the system....)
The newer DEF diesel engines also get more power from their engines by advancing the timing of the motor - this will attribute to more power, efficiency and fuel economy.
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Old 07-29-2014, 10:30 AM   #40
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This is where the confusion lies. DEF and DPF are confused, probably due to similar acronyms. Def and DPF are not inter-related and DEF does nothing to soot, nor the filter. It simply is a catalyst to convert oxides of nitrogen into inert gasses.

DPF, on the other hand, uses fuel to physically burn the soot into ash.

DEF is not a replacement for DPF, nor visa versa. They are not inter-related at all.
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Old 07-29-2014, 10:55 AM   #41
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Being somewhat new at towing I haven't known how to feel about my 13mpg (gas) until reading this. Guess it's OK. Thanks for the info.

Poppy
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Old 07-29-2014, 02:40 PM   #42
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I would say 13 mpg gas is very good.

I am happy when I get better than 11.
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