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Old 04-22-2013, 01:12 PM   #57
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Liability is an odd thing. Hot McD's coffee spilled on a lap for example.

All I know if I run a stop sign and get T-boned by a small van or SUV towing a overweight trailer I will have my lawyer bring it up to the judge/jury.

I would think the hitch shop knows what it is doing as far as it's liabily goes. So anyone in an accident could pull the hitch shop into any legal battle since they may have deeper pockets.

Again - it is all fine until an accident.
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Old 04-22-2013, 01:52 PM   #58
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I am curious about this also, have any of these tow vehicles been weighed fully loaded, hooked up and ready to head out to show that their axle and vehicle gross weight ratings are not exceeded.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS View Post
Steve,

A question back to you...

Are there any weight tickets proving that a loaded for camping Odyssey, say towing a 25' AS is not exceeding the factory stated ratings?

From published Odyssey specs.

Max Trailer Weight
3500lbs.(TV Empty with one 150lb driver)

2,833 lbs. front GAWR
Front Gross Axle Weight Rating

3,197 lbs. rear GAWR
Rear Gross Axle Weight Rating

5,952 lbs. GVWR
Gross Vehicle Weight Rating *

I know from tickets that with the WD set our 25'r adds 1080lbs to the rear axle.

Bob
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Old 04-22-2013, 02:25 PM   #59
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I wonder how many thousands of vehicles are on the highways that have been modified with bigger or smaller wheels and tires, shocks, brakes, lifts & lowers, etc., or have been rebuilt in some manner beyond the OEM specifications? In fact, how many Airstreams have been modified with different, axles, brakes, and other parts that don't match what the manufacturer originally installed? What about changing out wheels to 16" rims and raising the height of the trailer?

I guess we're all liable for something!
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Old 04-22-2013, 02:53 PM   #60
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Perhaps these thread interruptions come from "I've got an oversized, overpowered, pocketbook and back breaking, wretched to drive anywhere but straight down the road big honkin' truck and I want these guys to be as happy as me".

doug k
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Old 04-22-2013, 03:28 PM   #61
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Well said !!!!!
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Old 04-22-2013, 03:46 PM   #62
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Remember Al Gore was the god f global warming at one time. What happened to that? Time will tell on this subject, I hope no one gets killed because of someone's towing beliefs. Jim
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Old 04-22-2013, 03:59 PM   #63
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Interruptions.....

I can't believe you said that....

Is not this you?
"2012 Ram Express 4x4 Hemi 5.7 Reg cab 120" wheelbase"

I like my glass house fine.

Bob
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Old 04-22-2013, 04:26 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS View Post
Interruptions.....

I can't believe you said that....

Is not this you?
"2012 Ram Express 4x4 Hemi 5.7 Reg cab 120" wheelbase"

I like my glass house fine.

Bob
Yes me Bob, and I've been warned on this forum my 1/2 ton short wheelbase truck is dangerously light duty for the trailer. I tried to match the truck to the trailer as best I could and still have a nice daily driver, and added a Propride hitch for nicer towing.

But the thread is about a Honda Odyssey.

doug k
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Old 04-22-2013, 04:34 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS View Post
Steve,

A question back to you...

Are there any weight tickets proving that a loaded for camping Odyssey, say towing a 25' AS is not exceeding the factory stated ratings?

From published Odyssey specs.

Max Trailer Weight
3500lbs.(TV Empty with one 150lb driver)

2,833 lbs. front GAWR
Front Gross Axle Weight Rating

3,197 lbs. rear GAWR
Rear Gross Axle Weight Rating

5,952 lbs. GVWR
Gross Vehicle Weight Rating *

I know from tickets that with the WD set our 25'r adds 1080lbs to the rear axle.

Bob
I've not seen any Bob. I can only assume from the numbers of Odyssey vans Andy has set up that they're not going to be stressing the measurable ratings at all. I weighed my Sienna hitched up to my 28' International when I first took delivery; just the axle weights and I wasn't properly loaded, and I came in comfortably under. I've subsequently lost the ticket but I'm going to weigh again when we head out in May, complete with kids and dog, and see what the grizzly truth is.
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Old 04-22-2013, 04:48 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkottum View Post

But the thread is about a Honda Odyssey.

doug k

Is it really or is about the infallibility of whatever the posting member sez.

I KNOW I'm not exceeding the stated rate limits of my TV. I have the necessary weight tickets and specs in hand.

Show me...


Bob
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Old 04-22-2013, 06:27 PM   #67
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I know from tickets that with the WD set our 25'r adds 1080lbs to the rear axle.
Hi Bob
I know you are worried about the load on a Odyssey but I am actually more concerned about you. If your adding 1080 to your rear axle when you connect then your weight distribution is not even close to adequate. Depending on the tow vehicle you should not be adding any more than 500-600 pounds to the rear axle with your 25. It could be your weight distribution system is fine but your hitch receiver is twisting. What is your tow vehicle and what brand and rating weight distribution system are you using?
I weigh combinations quite regularly but most often fifth wheels, that is where the biggest problems are. Front drive vans have quite a lot of load capacity and since we can put a very nice hitch on them they transfer weight to the front wheels very effectively. Any I have weighed have been well under the axle ratings.
We have a several customers who are Lawyers, Police officers, a judge, insurance brokers and insurance company executives all who tow with our combinations. Also the retired head of vehicle compliance for the Ministry of Transportation tows a 29’ with an Odyssey.
If you tow with an Odyssey instead of an Excursion you will feel the Airstream more, the Odyssey is a pretty communicative vehicle. If you need to make an emergency maneuver to avoid and accident or make a fast stop the Odyssey will accomplish either or both of those in much less distance than an Excursion. In fact with an Odyssey and 25’ I think I could do a lane change or slalom faster than the Excursion solo. If the Excursion had low center of gravity, independent suspension, stickier tires and more precise steering it would better. You see having lots of size and weight suspended way above the road on a narrow suspension stance does not make a great handling stopping vehicle, hooking a trailer to it does not tend to make it better. Psychologically yes with performance testing not really.
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Old 04-22-2013, 06:46 PM   #68
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Question I'm not worried...

And your weight tickets are where?

Please don't assume.

Bob
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Old 04-22-2013, 07:19 PM   #69
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As of 2013, domestic vehicles now use SAE J2807 to establish standard towing capacity ratings so it is no longer just randomly assigned by the manufacturer. It seems foreign manufacturers may have been using this standard since 2010.

Quote:
When asked about towing liability issues, Dean Holleman, Vice President and Managing Attorney of Boyce Holleman & Associates (www.boyceholleman.com) in Gulfport, Mississippi, says “Any person who tows a trailer would be responsible to know that the towing vehicle has certain limitations which should not be exceeded.
If the accident is caused by the vehicle being used to tow something it was not designed to tow, this in itself could be an act negligence by the tow [vehicle] driver and under the theory of negligence he could be liable (and most probably would be held liable).
Holleman says that while some vehicle owners may argue the tow ratings and the proper setup of their vehicle isn’t clearly noted, he feels “most vehicles do have proper warnings and posting of limitations of towing weight.”
When it comes to negligence, or the failure of the driver’s “duty to tow only that which the vehicle is designed to tow,” Holleman and other attorneys agree if there’s an accident and the towing vehicle isn’t properly set up, the injured person would probably win any ensuing lawsuit.
from :
TRAILER TOWING ILLEGALLY

Yes, we couldn't all walk around worried about being sued all the time. But there are laws in place to ensure we don't act in a negligent manner. We are not talking about "lets never tow a trailer because we could injure someone and be sued".

We are talking about "Let's tow responsibly to make sure we don't put other people on the road at risk for our own stupid decisions".

Quote:
Towing beyond any vehicle's manufacturer's weight ratings-or without regard to the properly-equipped limitations a vehicle's manufacturer places on the towing vehicle-relates directly to the "Law of Negligence", and places you, the driver, bearing the full weight of liability issues.
"A plaintiff who was injured as a result of some negligent conduct on the part of a defendant is entitled to recover compensation for such injury from that defendant," quotes Richard Alexander, a major injury trial attorney in San Jose, California.
"One test that is helpful in determining whether or not a person was negligent is to ask and answer the question whether or not, if a person of ordinary prudence had been in the same situation and possessed of the same knowledge, he or she would have foreseen or anticipated that someone might have been injured by or as a result of his or her action or inaction.

"If the answer to that question is 'yes,' and if the action or inaction reasonably could have been avoided, then not to avoid it would be negligence," warns Alexander. (For more about this subject go to www.alexanderinjury.com.)
see Towing The LIne
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Old 04-23-2013, 12:28 PM   #70
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and one last item just for fun - let's survey the lawyers : Liability for towing higher than manufacturer recommended limit with personal vehicle - Avvo.com

" If I tow a 7,000 lb trailer with a minivan rated to tow 3,500 lbs, and someone was injured in an accident, could i be held personally liable? Could my insurance get out of paying? What about the RV dealer who suggested it and set it up for us, with a weight distribution system? "


Quote:
Of course you can be held personally liable for accidents you cause (whether or not you are towing anything at all). You are just setting yourself up for much larger potential judgments, criminal charges, etc. To be blunt, what you suggest is dangerous and stupid, and you won't get out of liability or charges by blaming it on the dealer. You are the one making the final decision.
Quote:
The injured party would have to show that the fact that you had towed a trailer higher than the rated capacity of your vehicle was the proximate cause of the injuries. It is more likely there would be some other reason that would be easier to prove that you were at fault for causing the accident such as speeding or running a red light or stop sign or some other reason. One thing that towing a vehicle could cause is significantly longer stopping distances which could contribute to causing the accident. I agree with my colleagues that you will have a very hard time implicating the RV dealer as being at fault. It is your responsibility to operate your vehicle in a safe manner and it was your decision to have the towing system installed.
Quote:
Of course. Plus you will screw up your minivan which will cost you thousands more. Cars or trucks with towing packages have an extra fan and special cooling system. The RV dealer is just trying to make a sale. the weight distribution only helps with stopping. It won't stop your car from overheating and ruining it, not to mention, your concern, about hitting someone. Also, don't forget, if you have family with you, are you willing to put their safety at risk ???????
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