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Old 05-10-2015, 07:31 AM   #85
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Sorry you don't approve of what is an accurate rebuttal, RG. Yes, different rigs will need some changes from one another, but using a travel trailer is different than the trailer type SAE and the OEMs have tended to use for their testing.

The article referenced is not the only one where Mr Thomson expressed his questions based on decades of setting hitch lash.

J2807 is more notable for what it does NOT ask (it pointedly ignores) than for what it purportedly offers. Without going into that (older threads contain arguments), the criticism offered is that SAE/OEM has a flawed testing procedure. That it is not producing benefits concomitant to its stated purpose. The resultant "tow ratings" mess is proof enough (let's not upset the OEMs or the TT manufacturers being of highest importance).

And that this fault (set of faults) can be demonstrated.

The article referenced does just that. Taken with the body of Mr Thomsons other published articles as well as online commentary, one comes away with quite a different take. Especially for those of use who used cars, not trucks, for decades in towing this particular type.

If one wishes to argue who or whom should have control of the argument then the assumptions checked off need to be highlighted at their beginning. Appeal to authority has its place, but is fraught with potential (real) pitfalls.
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Old 05-10-2015, 07:38 AM   #86
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Forgive me: Does tongue weight count against payload?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrprez View Post
Do you notice a difference in the steering when you are at 50% FALR? Seems like it would be very light without that other 250 pounds. I drive a Suburban 2500 with a 25' RB FC and a Blue Ox hitch. I am still experimenting with the setup to try and get it right. Best I've been able to do so far results in the front of the trailer being 17" and the rear 16". Can't quite get the trailer as level as I'd like. Squat measurements are fine on the TV although it does seem to be a bit light up front. I guess I need to load up and head to the nearest truck scale and see what is going on.



John

Consider work done away from a scale to be a rough-in. That the story is told by individual axle, then individual wheel loads. Keeping a logbook is best procedure.

Establish a numerical baseline to see the effect of further changes (heavier loads for longer trips and/or more passengers). Eventually one has the needed range of changes, as necessary.

Afterwards an annual check via the three-pass scale method (search "Ron Gratz Chart" this forum ) may be all that is necessary.

How the "best" numbers are arrived at is the point of some experiments.
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Old 05-10-2015, 09:42 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrprez View Post
Do you notice a difference in the steering when you are at 50% FALR? Seems like it would be very light without that other 250 pounds. I drive a Suburban 2500 with a 25' RB FC and a Blue Ox hitch. I am still experimenting with the setup to try and get it right. ---
John, the 50% FALR specified by Chevrolet for some pickup trucks does not apply to Suburbans.

The WDH-adjustment specification for Suburbans is:

When using a weight-distributing hitch, the spring bars should be adjusted so the distance {body to ground at front fender well} is the same after coupling the trailer to the tow vehicle and adjusting the hitch.

This implies 100% FALR.

Ron
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Old 05-10-2015, 10:03 AM   #88
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Thanks Ron, that is how I have been doing it and my front measurement is always the same.
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Old 05-10-2015, 10:56 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Gratz View Post
John, the 50% FALR specified by Chevrolet for some pickup trucks does not apply to Suburbans.

The WDH-adjustment specification for Suburbans is:

When using a weight-distributing hitch, the spring bars should be adjusted so the distance {body to ground at front fender well} is the same after coupling the trailer to the tow vehicle and adjusting the hitch.

This implies 100% FALR.

Ron
But Suburban has auto level control....which opens a whole additional can of worms.
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Old 05-10-2015, 11:21 AM   #90
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Not a 2500 with Quadrasteer. It has (had) electronically controlled shocks but those have been replaced with Bilstein 4600s. The 1500 Suburbans had the auto level control.
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Old 05-10-2015, 11:29 AM   #91
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On my rig I have about a 750 lb tongue weight (varies a little depending on trip/loading). I have always tried to get the old (Airstream recommendation) of 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 weight distribution to TV front axle, TV rear axle, and trailer axles. In my case that works out to about 250 lbs each. And I have always been satisfied with my towing stability/performance.

On a related note, just about every pickup truck towing guide out there I have ever seen allows 500 lbs of tongue weight on a bumper mounted ball with no weight distribution or FALR. How can the same manufacturer then require 100% FALR to safely tow with a weight distributing hitch? Could it be that the manufacturers that have moved to 50% FALR are just being consistent with the fact that they already were approving of towing on the bumper with less than 100% FALR?
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Old 05-10-2015, 07:03 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Siegmann View Post
On my rig I have about a 750 lb tongue weight (varies a little depending on trip/loading). I have always tried to get the old (Airstream recommendation) of 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 weight distribution to TV front axle, TV rear axle, and trailer axles. In my case that works out to about 250 lbs each. And I have always been satisfied with my towing stability/performance.
Have you measured your axle loads so you could calculate the indicated weight distribution?

Depending on TV and TT dimensions, typical distributions for TV front axle, TV rear axle, and TT axles might be:

-20%, 105%, 15% (FALR = 60%)
-10%, 90%, 20% (FALR = 80%)
0%, 75%, 25% (FALR = 100%)
10%, 60%, 30%, (FALR = 120%)
20%, 45%, 35% (FALR = 140%)
30%, 30%, 40% (FALR = 60%)

For the several dozen sets of scales data I've seen reported, the vast majority of WDH adjustments resulted in TT axle load transfers of 15-25% -- corresponding to FALRs in the range of 60-100%.
Very few, if any, TT axle transfers reached the 30% figure.
And, I've never seen any scales data which came close to giving equal transfers to all three axles.

Quote:
On a related note, just about every pickup truck towing guide out there I have ever seen allows 500 lbs of tongue weight on a bumper mounted ball with no weight distribution or FALR. How can the same manufacturer then require 100% FALR to safely tow with a weight distributing hitch? Could it be that the manufacturers that have moved to 50% FALR are just being consistent with the fact that they already were approving of towing on the bumper with less than 100% FALR?
That could be.
It also could be that those TV manufacturers believe that, for some TVs, a 100% FALR can cause too much load on the TV's front axle and too little load on the TV's rear axle tending toward a potentially dangerous oversteer condition.

Ron
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Old 05-10-2015, 07:42 PM   #93
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Note: The final FALR in the distribution table in the previous post should be FALR = 160%.
The value of 60% is incorrect.

Ron

P.S. Anybody else think we should have more time allowed for editing our posts?
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Old 05-10-2015, 09:56 PM   #94
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Ron, you caught me. The operational word was "tried". My scale measurement for the TT axle load transfer was about 25%.
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Old 06-21-2015, 03:24 AM   #95
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Someone may want to interpret these weights, truck carries an extra 475 lbs of fuel in its bed. Also, lots of "gear" on board, trailer full water load, supplies for three weeks, but here are the weights:

Front 4480 lbs, rear 4920, trailer 7280 for a total of 16,680, and the combination drives, handles like a dream.


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Old 06-21-2015, 08:27 AM   #96
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Need a series of (3) scale tickets.

Driver always in TV when scale reading taken. CAT Scale, nationwide. Pay for each at fuel desk after each reading. Re weighs are about $2.00

One, run the loaded for travel rig across the scale (full fuel in TV; full water & propane in trailer) with WD tensioned. Exit, park, pay.

Second, go around for a second pass as above, but with WD slack. Exit, park, pay.

Third, drop trailer and weigh TV alone. (And, again).

These scale readings will tell us how much weight the hitch is restoring to the TV Steer Axle. And give us the trailer tongue weight as well as to see how much is shifted onto trailer axles.

Scan the scale tickets to post here, is easiest.

Hitch adjustments, if desired, can be made from this starting point.
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Old 06-21-2015, 09:23 AM   #97
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@slowmover

I agree, these weights were from the State of Louisiana scales....

My guess is that I am transferring about 600 pounds through my Reese Dual Cam Weight Distribution hitch on to the truck as my base weight was 6760 lbs at production, and I am carrying about 1,000 lbs of water, propane, clothes and other gear.

And, I plan at some point to do what you have suggested across the CAT scales. Only problem is I always seem to be out of time...LOL
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Old 06-21-2015, 09:32 AM   #98
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Addenda to my post #60.

I had my WD hitch tight (dropped 7 links of chain). This past week I had towed from home to Toronto (about 250 miles) with the 7 links dropped, but on the return trip I decided to drop only 6 links of chain, thereby shifting back some of the weight that had been put onto the front axle - I found that steering and handling was improved.
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