Forgive me: Does tongue weight count against payload?

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by SteveSueMac

And for what it's worth - Slowmover (or Rednax at the time) was the guy who really inspired me to do all the CAT scale weights in the first place. I respect your opinion tremendously - and - find the 50% FALR with my 2500 truck is a sweet ride.

Best to everyone!

Thanks

Don't know why RG dragged that in. And, FWIW, the initial setup is always just a baseline. TV tire pressure is the goal, so to speak. And that may mean further experimentation.

Though, as Andrew notes in the above article, most owners are probably okay with factory hitch spec settings. Factory and aftermarket hitch receivers are, in the main, unable to deal with higher loads imposed by a WDH. Hard enough to get customers to pay attention to using WD in the first place.

Then again, most owners pull trailers with suspensions less sophisticated than a horse wagon. It's a market with unintelligent customers, to be fair.

As far as I can tell, a rig that cannot achieve 100% FALR has problems in need of correction. Whether or not that is the best setting is entirely another question.

[SteveSueMac]

Originally Posted by slowmover

Thanks

Don't know why RG dragged that in. ...snip...

I think because you mentioned that 50% FALR a had been disproved within a post or two of my description of it in the thread. No biggie!

Ron's another guy whose opinion carries a lot of weight with me (and not just because he guessed my weight through my first mistaken CAT tickets I posted &#128515

[Ron Gratz]

Originally Posted by slowmover

50% FALR has been rebutted. ---

Vol 44 #1
2015 Rv Buyer Guide issue
Hitch Hints
"Setting Your Torsion Bars"

Thank for the title of the article -- made it easier to access it.

I believe Andy has mis-interpreted the SAE J2807 Recommended Practice.
SAE J2807 does not (and, is not intended to) specify how the user of a TV/TT combo should adjust the WD bars.

The purpose of SAE J2807 is stated as:
This document defines procedures and requirements to determine Gross Combination Weight Rating (GCWR) and calculate corresponding Trailer Weight Rating (TWR) for any tow-vehicle. These procedures will establish consistent rating requirements and processes so end users (customers) can reasonably compare similar class models in terms of trailering ability.

Yes, SAE J2807 does specify a 50% Front Axle Load Restoration (FALR) for some of the tow vehicle comparison tests.
But, they also specify 0% FALR for some tests and 100% FALR for some tests.
There is nothing in SAE J2807 which specifies that a WDH should be adjusted to 50% by the TV operator.
In fact, there is nothing in SAE J2807 which specifies anything the end user should or should not do.

If Andy wants to take someone to task for abandoning the "equal squat" approach to WDH adjustment (I assume that's what Andy means by "the industry spec of the last 50 years"), he should be directing his criticism at Ford, GMC/Chverolet, Toyota, Progress Mfg (Equal-i-zer), Cequent Group (Reese/DrawTite), et. al.)
They are the ones who now are telling customers not to use the "equal squat" approach.

Andy's article, "Setting Your Torsion Bars", seems to be a blanket indictment of SAE's attempt to produce a recommended practice for comparison testing of tow vehicles.
There always will be some who will be opposed to some or all of any recommended practice.
It never will be possible to get unanimous agreement as to requirements for comparison testing of tow vehicle performance.

IMO, expecting TV manufacturers to test their vehicles at "equal squat" is unrealistic.
IMO, expecting manufacturers of receivers and hitches to provide products which minimize rear overhang for a variety of TVs is unrealistic.
IMO, expecting all users to adjust their WDH for maximum rearward angle of the ball mount is unrealistic.

Andy says that "SAE has tried to take on something that should not be their job".
He also says that what SAE is trying to do should be the job of the RV dealer.
Let's be realistic -- how are RV dealers ever going to get together to agree on a recommended practice for comparison of TV towing performance???
The RV dealers would produce nothing. SAE has produced something.

IMO, Andy's article disproves nothing.
Fortunately, in the end, Andy recommends experimentation to find what works best for a given combination. That, I agree with.

Ron

[Tincampers]

Originally Posted by SteveSueMac

I have a 2013 Chevy 2500 and tow a 27FB with a ProPride hitch for total tongue weight between 1000 and 1100 depending on when I've weighed it. According to all the manuals from Chevy for my truck (including the Diesel appendix), my configuration requires only 50% of what's lifted off the front to be returned to the front by the hitch. I know this because in my case, I think the front axle lost 500# or so when connected to the trailer and therefore only needed 250# to be transferred back. I got the wrong bars for my hitch (because I was smarter than Sean the manufacturer :-/ ) and had some trouble getting all 500# back to the front and with the help of Ron G and others here, realized that wasn't necessary with my setup.

From what I've read in the forums, 250# of WD is certainly doable with the Andersen. You'd have to check to be sure but I'm guessing that's the ball park you're in. People who use it tend to love it (though - come to think of it - people tend to love whatever they use :-) ).

If you want a light weight, easy to use, relatively inexpensive hitch, that Andersen could be ideal for your setup. While tedious, you should check out the threads about them and evaluate for yourself.

I've only ever used the ProPride (which I love - but not to the point of getting bent out of shape if you buy a different product :-) ).

Good luck!!

Do you notice a difference in the steering when you are at 50% FALR? Seems like it would be very light without that other 250 pounds. I drive a Suburban 2500 with a 25' RB FC and a Blue Ox hitch. I am still experimenting with the setup to try and get it right. Best I've been able to do so far results in the front of the trailer being 17" and the rear 16". Can't quite get the trailer as level as I'd like. Squat measurements are fine on the TV although it does seem to be a bit light up front. I guess I need to load up and head to the nearest truck scale and see what is going on.

John

[slowmover]

Sorry you don't approve of what is an accurate rebuttal, RG. Yes, different rigs will need some changes from one another, but using a travel trailer is different than the trailer type SAE and the OEMs have tended to use for their testing.

The article referenced is not the only one where Mr Thomson expressed his questions based on decades of setting hitch lash.

J2807 is more notable for what it does NOT ask (it pointedly ignores) than for what it purportedly offers. Without going into that (older threads contain arguments), the criticism offered is that SAE/OEM has a flawed testing procedure. That it is not producing benefits concomitant to its stated purpose. The resultant "tow ratings" mess is proof enough (let's not upset the OEMs or the TT manufacturers being of highest importance).

And that this fault (set of faults) can be demonstrated.

The article referenced does just that. Taken with the body of Mr Thomsons other published articles as well as online commentary, one comes away with quite a different take. Especially for those of use who used cars, not trucks, for decades in towing this particular type.

If one wishes to argue who or whom should have control of the argument then the assumptions checked off need to be highlighted at their beginning. Appeal to authority has its place, but is fraught with potential (real) pitfalls.

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by mrprez

Do you notice a difference in the steering when you are at 50% FALR? Seems like it would be very light without that other 250 pounds. I drive a Suburban 2500 with a 25' RB FC and a Blue Ox hitch. I am still experimenting with the setup to try and get it right. Best I've been able to do so far results in the front of the trailer being 17" and the rear 16". Can't quite get the trailer as level as I'd like. Squat measurements are fine on the TV although it does seem to be a bit light up front. I guess I need to load up and head to the nearest truck scale and see what is going on.



John

Consider work done away from a scale to be a rough-in. That the story is told by individual axle, then individual wheel loads. Keeping a logbook is best procedure.

Establish a numerical baseline to see the effect of further changes (heavier loads for longer trips and/or more passengers). Eventually one has the needed range of changes, as necessary.

Afterwards an annual check via the three-pass scale method (search "Ron Gratz Chart" this forum ) may be all that is necessary.

How the "best" numbers are arrived at is the point of some experiments.

[Ron Gratz]

Originally Posted by mrprez

Do you notice a difference in the steering when you are at 50% FALR? Seems like it would be very light without that other 250 pounds. I drive a Suburban 2500 with a 25' RB FC and a Blue Ox hitch. I am still experimenting with the setup to try and get it right. ---

John, the 50% FALR specified by Chevrolet for some pickup trucks does not apply to Suburbans.

The WDH-adjustment specification for Suburbans is:

When using a weight-distributing hitch, the spring bars should be adjusted so the distance {body to ground at front fender well} is the same after coupling the trailer to the tow vehicle and adjusting the hitch.

This implies 100% FALR.

Ron

[Tincampers]

Thanks Ron, that is how I have been doing it and my front measurement is always the same.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by Ron Gratz

John, the 50% FALR specified by Chevrolet for some pickup trucks does not apply to Suburbans.

The WDH-adjustment specification for Suburbans is:

When using a weight-distributing hitch, the spring bars should be adjusted so the distance {body to ground at front fender well} is the same after coupling the trailer to the tow vehicle and adjusting the hitch.

This implies 100% FALR.

Ron

But Suburban has auto level control....which opens a whole additional can of worms.

[Tincampers]

Not a 2500 with Quadrasteer. It has (had) electronically controlled shocks but those have been replaced with Bilstein 4600s. The 1500 Suburbans had the auto level control.

[Siegmann]

On my rig I have about a 750 lb tongue weight (varies a little depending on trip/loading). I have always tried to get the old (Airstream recommendation) of 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 weight distribution to TV front axle, TV rear axle, and trailer axles. In my case that works out to about 250 lbs each. And I have always been satisfied with my towing stability/performance.

On a related note, just about every pickup truck towing guide out there I have ever seen allows 500 lbs of tongue weight on a bumper mounted ball with no weight distribution or FALR. How can the same manufacturer then require 100% FALR to safely tow with a weight distributing hitch? Could it be that the manufacturers that have moved to 50% FALR are just being consistent with the fact that they already were approving of towing on the bumper with less than 100% FALR?

[Ron Gratz]

Originally Posted by Siegmann

On my rig I have about a 750 lb tongue weight (varies a little depending on trip/loading). I have always tried to get the old (Airstream recommendation) of 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 weight distribution to TV front axle, TV rear axle, and trailer axles. In my case that works out to about 250 lbs each. And I have always been satisfied with my towing stability/performance.

Have you measured your axle loads so you could calculate the indicated weight distribution?

Depending on TV and TT dimensions, typical distributions for TV front axle, TV rear axle, and TT axles might be:

-20%, 105%, 15% (FALR = 60%)
-10%, 90%, 20% (FALR = 80%)
0%, 75%, 25% (FALR = 100%)
10%, 60%, 30%, (FALR = 120%)
20%, 45%, 35% (FALR = 140%)
30%, 30%, 40% (FALR = 60%)

For the several dozen sets of scales data I've seen reported, the vast majority of WDH adjustments resulted in TT axle load transfers of 15-25% -- corresponding to FALRs in the range of 60-100%.
Very few, if any, TT axle transfers reached the 30% figure.
And, I've never seen any scales data which came close to giving equal transfers to all three axles.

On a related note, just about every pickup truck towing guide out there I have ever seen allows 500 lbs of tongue weight on a bumper mounted ball with no weight distribution or FALR. How can the same manufacturer then require 100% FALR to safely tow with a weight distributing hitch? Could it be that the manufacturers that have moved to 50% FALR are just being consistent with the fact that they already were approving of towing on the bumper with less than 100% FALR?

That could be.
It also could be that those TV manufacturers believe that, for some TVs, a 100% FALR can cause too much load on the TV's front axle and too little load on the TV's rear axle tending toward a potentially dangerous oversteer condition.

Ron

[Ron Gratz]

Note: The final FALR in the distribution table in the previous post should be FALR = 160%.
The value of 60% is incorrect.

Ron

P.S. Anybody else think we should have more time allowed for editing our posts?

[Siegmann]

Ron, you caught me. The operational word was "tried". My scale measurement for the TT axle load transfer was about 25%.

[Msmoto]

Someone may want to interpret these weights, truck carries an extra 475 lbs of fuel in its bed. Also, lots of "gear" on board, trailer full water load, supplies for three weeks, but here are the weights:

Front 4480 lbs, rear 4920, trailer 7280 for a total of 16,680, and the combination drives, handles like a dream.


Ms Tommie Lauer
Greensboro, NC
2015 Serenity 30 RB / 2008 Dodge Cummins 4 X 4
WBCCI #4165 AIR #31871

[slowmover]

Need a series of (3) scale tickets.

Driver always in TV when scale reading taken. CAT Scale, nationwide. Pay for each at fuel desk after each reading. Re weighs are about $2.00

One, run the loaded for travel rig across the scale (full fuel in TV; full water & propane in trailer) with WD tensioned. Exit, park, pay.

Second, go around for a second pass as above, but with WD slack. Exit, park, pay.

Third, drop trailer and weigh TV alone. (And, again).

These scale readings will tell us how much weight the hitch is restoring to the TV Steer Axle. And give us the trailer tongue weight as well as to see how much is shifted onto trailer axles.

Scan the scale tickets to post here, is easiest.

Hitch adjustments, if desired, can be made from this starting point.

[Msmoto]

@slowmover

I agree, these weights were from the State of Louisiana scales....

My guess is that I am transferring about 600 pounds through my Reese Dual Cam Weight Distribution hitch on to the truck as my base weight was 6760 lbs at production, and I am carrying about 1,000 lbs of water, propane, clothes and other gear.

And, I plan at some point to do what you have suggested across the CAT scales. Only problem is I always seem to be out of time...LOL

[blkmagikca]

Addenda to my post #60.

I had my WD hitch tight (dropped 7 links of chain). This past week I had towed from home to Toronto (about 250 miles) with the 7 links dropped, but on the return trip I decided to drop only 6 links of chain, thereby shifting back some of the weight that had been put onto the front axle - I found that steering and handling was improved.

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by blkmagikca

Addenda to my post #60.

I had my WD hitch tight (dropped 7 links of chain). This past week I had towed from home to Toronto (about 250 miles) with the 7 links dropped, but on the return trip I decided to drop only 6 links of chain, thereby shifting back some of the weight that had been put onto the front axle - I found that steering and handling was improved.

Better to measure by the number of links under tension. Total chain length (number of links) could vary.

Getting the set of scale weights sure makes further experimentation easier. Am not surprised that improvements were felt. Was it just the need for a lighter touch, or that the rig -- as a whole -- responded more easily?

I ask as this is where playing with TV tire pressure comes in. It's nice, in my view, to be able to use numbers as a baseline. It's too easy to take some things a ways out. And then another. And not be able to find the beginning, ha!

So, having lessened the load on the Steer Axle, the tire performance has some room on pressure, now.

A tweak here and a tweak there is how it goes.

[Msmoto]

I currently have four links loose, and have found if I go with five, other adjustments necessary to get the trailer level, that indeed, handling is not as good.

It is worth it to play around with various combinations to where handling is best. Presently, even with the large fuel load, my rig handles like a dream. Only when I am in a strong side wind do I feel the bow wave from passing semi's.


Ms Tommie Lauer
Greensboro, NC
2015 Serenity 30 RB / 2008 Dodge Cummins 4 X 4
WBCCI #4165 AIR #31871