Ford has a 10-speed ... why not GM?

[WhereStream]

Looking around for a future truck or SUV to tow my Airstream, I notice that Ford's F150 has a 10-speed auto transmission, as does its remodeled Expedition.

The Suburban and Tahoe I checked out, though, have 6-speed autos (8-speed is available, I believe, if you go with the bigger engine, which I do not prefer).

Ford's 10-speed was developed through a partnership with General Motors, so why has GM let Ford get ahead?

I've heard no anguish from Ford drivers regarding the new transmission, so I assume it is working well and is reliable (though time will tell).

What's the holdup at GM, and is this a negative for buyers or just a 10-is-bigger-than-6 numbers game that doesn't really matter?

[AirUSN]

I believe the Camaro is using the 10sp

[dznf0g]

Because Ford and GM are off cycle in platform introductions. The F150 new platform planned for it for their last introduction. The GM PU new platform is this summer, followed by the FSSUVs about a year later. Current platform is from 2014 and 2015 respectively. Ford and GM have always played leapfrog with their introductions.

[gator.bigfoot]

Be careful buying this new technology. These newer transmissions utilize solenoids to switch the gears. These solenoids are driven via a computer. The more gears the more components in the transmission. One newer transmission we just looked at building had over 500 assemblies (not components) in them. The cost to automate this was ridiculous. Not to mention the assembly via machines is nearly impossible. All of the solenoids sit in the transmission oil and all of the connectors as well as the wiring. Nothing will ever go wrong this approach will it? I will stick with the older tech and let all of you "guinea pigs" debug the newer stuff. The only reason all of this newer tech is coming out is to make small fuel gains. Not worth it in my opinion. Working in this industry lets me have a better foresight than the rest of the population, I get to see things very few people see and get to be involved in advanced and current products. It's a cool and fun industry, but you guys have way too much faith in the designers. Just say'in.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by gator.bigfoot

Be careful buying this new technology. These newer transmissions utilize solenoids to switch the gears. These solenoids are driven via a computer. The more gears the more components in the transmission. One newer transmission we just looked at building had over 500 assemblies (not components) in them. The cost to automate this was ridiculous. Not to mention the assembly via machines is nearly impossible. All of the solenoids sit in the transmission oil and all of the connectors as well as the wiring. Nothing will ever go wrong this approach will it? I will stick with the older tech and let all of you "guinea pigs" debug the newer stuff. The only reason all of this newer tech is coming out is to make small fuel gains. Not worth it in my opinion. Working in this industry lets me have a better foresight than the rest of the population, I get to see things very few people see and get to be involved in advanced and current products. It's a cool and fun industry, but you guys have way too much faith in the designers. Just say'in.

Dear Lord, Gator. Electronic shift (solenoids) have been in almost all newly released auto trans since the 80s. I would also tell you, that besides a fuel economy gain (and it is not small), designing the engine to produce its torque in a narrow band, and an 8 or 10 speed keeping it there provides awesome performance, especially for towing.

I wouldn't call 23 - 24.5 mpg (solo @ 60 mph) for a 370 CI (6.2l) with 420 horse and 460 torque, small economy gains.

[gator.bigfoot]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

Dear Lord, Gator. Electronic shift (solenoids) have been in almost all newly released auto trans since the 80s. I would also tell you, that besides a fuel economy gain (and it is not small), designing the engine to produce its torque in a narrow band, and an 8 or 10 speed keeping it there provides awesome performance, especially for towing.

I wouldn't call 23 - 24.5 mpg (solo @ 60 mph) for a 370 CI (6.2l) with 420 horse and 460 torque, small economy gains.

Yes, but the higher the number of components the more things go wrong and the higher the repair bills. I'll wait until all of the bugs have been worked out before jumping in on the deep in.

[dznf0g]

Do what makes you comfortable , but I can tell you as a factory rep I see far far fewer transmission issues in the late models than in the 90s and 2000s. No comparison.

[m.hony]

Just comparing the GM 6-speed to the GM 4-speed in our fleet:
The housing is the same size.
The clutches are smaller in the 6-speed vs. the 4-speed- less friction material.
Less friction material/smaller surface area = wears out more quickly.
We used to get 200,000-300,000 miles out of the old 4L60E and 4L80E transmissions.
The new 6-speed wears out at 100,000 miles.
If you trade every 2-3 years anyway, go ahead and get a 10-speed.
If you want a 20-30 year truck...
On the other hand, I have never heard of any issues with the Toyota 6-speed.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by m.hony

Just comparing the GM 6-speed to the GM 4-speed in our fleet:
The housing is the same size.
The clutches are smaller in the 6-speed vs. the 4-speed- less friction material.
Less friction material/smaller surface area = wears out more quickly.
We used to get 200,000-300,000 miles out of the old 4L60E and 4L80E transmissions.
The new 6-speed wears out at 100,000 miles.
If you trade every 2-3 years anyway, go ahead and get a 10-speed.
If you want a 20-30 year truck...
On the other hand, I have never heard of any issues with the Toyota 6-speed.

Then, you're not paying attention:

https://parts.olathetoyota.com/blog/...ssion-slipping

[HunterC]

I’ve had 3 (non-XL) GMC Yukon’s. Pulling my 25’ AS, the 5.3 engines seemed to struggle a bit in the mountains. The new 6.2 with 10 speed pulls like a supercharged tractor (night and day difference). Under tow, my older yukons would merge onto the freeway at about 3500 rpms. The new 6.2 with 10-speed does it better and never goes much over 2300 rpms unless Im angry. Much much more power in the lower rpm range. I also notice that this new 10-speed tranny runs much cooler. My 2015 6-speed seemed regulated at 189 degrees (192 while towing). The new 10-speed runs more around 150 degrees. I’m glad I upgraded and have zero fears of the mountains/steep grades anymore. For what it’s worth I was also told by a local transmission guy that the new transmissions use synthetic fluids which can handle much higher heat loads than the older transmissions. Good luck!

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by HunterC

I’ve had 3 (non-XL) GMC Yukon’s. Pulling my 25’ AS, the 5.3 engines seemed to struggle a bit in the mountains. The new 6.2 with 10 speed pulls like a supercharged tractor (night and day difference). Under tow, my older yukons would merge onto the freeway at about 3500 rpms. The new 6.2 with 10-speed does it better and never goes much over 2300 rpms unless Im angry. Much much more power in the lower rpm range. I also notice that this new 10-speed tranny runs much cooler. My 2015 6-speed seemed regulated at 189 degrees (192 while towing). The new 10-speed runs more around 150 degrees. I’m glad I upgraded and have zero fears of the mountains/steep grades anymore. For what it’s worth I was also told by a local transmission guy that the new transmissions use synthetic fluids which can handle much higher heat loads than the older transmissions. Good luck!

The 8 speed uses Dexron HP ONLY. It's pricey, but good stuff. I've noticed prices coming down a bit, as more companies come on board with production...and price breaks on Amazon for buying it by the case. I still believe in a fluid change at 25k for my TV, which is primarily a tow vehicle. approx 90% towing miles.

[xrvr]

Off topic but first gm i owned was a nova with a powerglide 2 speed. Did the job with a 307 v8 i think. 1971??

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by xrvr

Off topic but first gm i owned was a nova with a powerglide 2 speed. Did the job with a 307 v8 i think. 1971??

Yea, your right...off topic!

[jcl]

Originally Posted by gator.bigfoot

Be careful buying this new technology. These newer transmissions utilize solenoids to switch the gears. These solenoids are driven via a computer. The more gears the more components in the transmission.

Solenoids are standard fare. What is different about this new 10 speed transmission is that the solenoids and valves are integrated into the clutch packs, they aren't separate components. Ford did that for shorter fluid passages (resulting in faster shifting) but it shows up in a reduced component count as well. Reduced component count generally means improved reliability.

If concerned about reliability, look to the new two stage filter as well.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

Because Ford and GM are off cycle in platform introductions. The F150 new platform planned for it for their last introduction. The GM PU new platform is this summer, followed by the FSSUVs about a year later. Current platform is from 2014 and 2015 respectively. Ford and GM have always played leapfrog with their introductions.

In addition, Ford was the engineering design lead on this joint transmission, so they may have had more influence on timing and product launch.

On the other hand, the engineering design for the second joint Ford/GM transmission, a new 9 speed for transverse FWD applications, is being led by GM, so I would expect them to have some control over the release timing of that product.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

The 8 speed uses Dexron HP ONLY. It's pricey, but good stuff. I've noticed prices coming down a bit, as more companies come on board with production...and price breaks on Amazon for buying it by the case. I still believe in a fluid change at 25k for my TV, which is primarily a tow vehicle. approx 90% towing miles.

The 10 speed uses Mercon ULV (Ultra Low Viscosity) in the F150, so yet another part to stock. Don't know what GM will call the new fluid. In the Camaro, what fluid spec do they call for?

I would expect it to be more pricey than Dexron HP.

[Boxite]

Originally Posted by gator.bigfoot

Yes, but the higher the number of components the more things go wrong and the higher the repair bills. I'll wait until all of the bugs have been worked out before jumping in on the deep in.

This reminds me of the B.C. Comic-Strip a few years ago... when one cave-man (Thor) was asking B.C. to look at his improvement on his "wheel" invention. Thor was standing on top of and straddling the axle of his "wheel"...which was a large stone TRIANGLE. The improvement he claimed over his previous stone (SQUARE-shaped) "wheel" was.... "One less BUMP!"

All I can see these days in the Chevy ads are a bunch of "bubbas" standing around shipping containers disgorging Chevy trucks while they all remark "Yeah-Boy!" and "Awesome" and "Goosebumps" etc etc etc.
Hardly tells me anything about the truck versus it's competition.

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by xrvr

Off topic but first gm i owned was a nova with a powerglide 2 speed. Did the job with a 307 v8 i think. 1971??

The power glide in my Buick went out one time, leaving me with only reverse gear, and I backed up though Dearborn six miles to my home south of Detroit.

[Paprika]

I can't make any predictions about reliability, but I can say that my 2017 F-150 Lariat with 3.5 liter EcoBoost V6 coupled to Ford's version of the ten-speed transmission has excellent power and torque, even at the low end. It steps out smartly when hauling my 27' International. In my experience, this has been a winning combination for trailer towing.

[m.hony]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

Then, you're not paying attention:



https://parts.olathetoyota.com/blog/...ssion-slipping

I own a 2007 Tundra.
Had it for 10 years.
Never had this issue or even heard of it till now.
Never seen anyone mention it on any online forum.
Maybe I am in the dark...