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02-08-2018, 04:29 PM
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#41
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Walnut Creek
, California
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 3,952
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjdonahoe
Lots of gears do not make up for low hp and torque....
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The bicycle riders of the world might well counter your opinion. Pat
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02-08-2018, 04:47 PM
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#42
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Rivet Master
2013 31' Classic
billings
, Montana
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,576
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcl
You are again using Class 8 trucks as irrelevant examples in a discussion about pulling an Airstream trailer.
If you want to focus on torque of your diesel, look to the specs on torque rise rather than the torque value itself. It is more applicable.
As to your comment on a weak engine, the Ecoboost 3.5 has so much torque in the application under discussion that Ford designed a transmission with 3 overdrive ratios, simply to match the excess of available torque.
Weak indeed.
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Yep..put it under a load .....towing...how many miles will it last? That is the question...
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02-08-2018, 05:10 PM
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#43
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Vancouver
, British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,578
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjdonahoe
Yep..put it under a load .....towing...how many miles will it last? That is the question...
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No it isn't. It has been in production for 10 years now.
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02-08-2018, 05:15 PM
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#44
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Rivet Master
2018 27' International
Southeastern MI
, Michigan
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcl
Actually, in this new 10 speed transmission, in the top four gears there is no torque multiplication. 7th is direct (1:1), and 8th through 10th are overdrives, so a torque reduction through the transmission. This leaves aside the torque converter, which is designed to stay in lockup as much as possible.
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I don’t think anyone on this board except a few engineers understands that torque and power are different units of measure.
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02-09-2018, 09:41 AM
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#45
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Rivet Master
2008 22' Safari
Spicewood (W of Austin)
, Texas
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 2,950
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Countryboy59
I don’t think anyone on this board except a few engineers understands that torque and power are different units of measure.
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And this strongly resembles the ridiculous age-old Ford/Chevy controversy. If one wishes to know why GM doesn't do what Ford does...why not go directly to the source and ask GM? Does anyone here have any great influence on production/engineering decisions at GM?...
(Forget Fix Or Repair Daily and Goofy Maintenance. Get a RAM... Reliable Automotive Machines.)
(I hope everyone takes this with the tongue-in-cheek as-intended.)
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02-09-2018, 10:09 AM
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#46
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Vancouver
, British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,578
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxite
And this strongly resembles the ridiculous age-old Ford/Chevy controversy. If one wishes to know why GM doesn't do what Ford does...why not go directly to the source and ask GM? Does anyone here have any great influence on production/engineering decisions at GM?...
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I think the forum is a pretty good source of info. The answer was provided. GM does have a 10 speed, it just isn’t in their pickup yet. Not only do they have a 10 speed, but it is the same 10 speed as Ford has. Not so RAM as they use ZF and ZF have said they won’t go to 10, 9 is enough.
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02-09-2018, 10:58 AM
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#47
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Rivet Master
2008 22' Safari
Spicewood (W of Austin)
, Texas
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 2,950
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcl
I think the forum is a pretty good source of info. The answer was provided. GM does have a 10 speed, it just isn’t in their pickup yet. Not only do they have a 10 speed, but it is the same 10 speed as Ford has. Not so RAM as they use ZF and ZF have said they won’t go to 10, 9 is enough.
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Having a "ten speed" does not equate to a "better" choice....but the follower of these threads likely doesn't have the choice anyway.
The ZF 8-speed already handles more torque (738 ft/lbs...presumeably meaning more durability) than the admired ten-speed and the number of gear ratios do not equate to "better" in all respects as improperly believed. Numbers alone don't make the difference.
And the discussion...while interesting... doesn't solve the riddle of the average consumer being able to "choose" which trans GM or Ford or whoever puts in their vehicles. It's a moot question regardless. You/Me/We can only accept what GM/Ford/Whoever decides for us. The wife either likes the color or she doesn't.
We might as well ask "Why doesn't GE offer a 104-watt light bulb?.... as if anyone here could cause that to happen....or as if it made any difference if they could.
Maybe I'm just being a grump today.
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02-09-2018, 11:20 AM
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#48
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Walnut Creek
, California
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 3,952
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxite
-- snip -- Maybe I'm just being a grump today.
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You are, but it's because that bear is getting closer and you need another gear! Pat
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02-09-2018, 01:26 PM
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#49
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Vancouver
, British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,578
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxite
Having a "ten speed" does not equate to a "better" choice....but the follower of these threads likely doesn't have the choice anyway.
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It means smaller jumps between gears and thus a better ability to keep the engine at a specific point on the torque curve, when matched to ECM programming. Which relates to why Ford and GM would value it more than ZF, who doesn’t control ECM programming
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxite
The ZF 8-speed already handles more torque (738 ft/lbs...presumeably meaning more durability) than the admired ten-speed and the number of gear ratios do not equate to "better" in all respects as improperly believed. Numbers alone don't make the difference.
And the discussion...while interesting... doesn't solve the riddle of the average consumer being able to "choose" which trans GM or Ford or whoever puts in their vehicles. It's a moot question regardless. You/Me/We can only accept what GM/Ford/Whoever decides for us. The wife either likes the color or she doesn’t:
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More torque capacity doesn’t equal more durability once you have enough. Note that GM is using a stronger (higher torque capacity) version of this transmission in the Camaro than in their truck
If the choice of truck depends on the colour then this isn’t the right thread to be reading IMO ;-)
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02-10-2018, 05:25 AM
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#50
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Mantua
, Ohio
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 7,062
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I remember years sgo a person posted a thread about the best tv. He knew nothing about trucks only that it had tk be the best red truck available. Did not care about tow limits or payload, only the prettiest one to go with his knew probably never to be used airstream. .life is not a beauty contest, It is a costume party, though!!
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02-10-2018, 01:59 PM
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#51
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Rivet Master
2008 22' Safari
Spicewood (W of Austin)
, Texas
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 2,950
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcl
...
...If the choice of truck depends on the colour then this isn’t the right thread to be reading IMO ;-)
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Sure it is (the right thread to be reading.) The Forums are read for info AND for general discussion between friends.
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02-10-2018, 02:58 PM
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#52
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Overkill Specialist
Commercial Member
2020 30’ Globetrotter
2014 23' International
Dadeville
, Alabama
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 4,516
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I have a 10 speed bike.
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02-10-2018, 03:00 PM
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#53
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Rivet Master
2007 30' Classic
Oswego
, Illinois
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,656
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMFL
I have a 10 speed bike. [emoji38]
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Oh, yeah? I have a 10 speed AND a 21 speed....so there.....!
__________________
-Rich-
"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." - Red Green
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02-10-2018, 03:11 PM
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#54
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Overkill Specialist
Commercial Member
2020 30’ Globetrotter
2014 23' International
Dadeville
, Alabama
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 4,516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dznf0g
Oh, yeah? I have a 10 speed AND a 21 speed....so there.....!
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Dang it! Well I have a Duramax
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02-10-2018, 03:16 PM
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#55
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Rivet Master
2007 30' Classic
Oswego
, Illinois
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,656
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMFL
Dang it! Well I have a Duramax
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Crap.....I don't. You win. I guess.....
__________________
-Rich-
"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." - Red Green
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02-10-2018, 03:53 PM
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#56
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Overkill Specialist
Commercial Member
2020 30’ Globetrotter
2014 23' International
Dadeville
, Alabama
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 4,516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dznf0g
Crap.....I don't. You win. I guess.....
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Haha. That was fun!
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02-11-2018, 10:50 AM
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#57
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Vintage Kin
Fort Worth
, Texas
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,014
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Ford has a 10-speed ... why not GM?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dznf0g
Dear Lord, Gator. Electronic shift (solenoids) have been in almost all newly released auto trans since the 80s. I would also tell you, that besides a fuel economy gain (and it is not small), designing the engine to produce its torque in a narrow band, and an 8 or 10 speed keeping it there provides awesome performance, especially for towing.
I wouldn't call 23 - 24.5 mpg (solo @ 60 mph) for a 370 CI (6.2l) with 420 horse and 460 torque, small economy gains.
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OT
Never thought I’d see that in any truck till 1989 when the Cummins showed up in a Dodge. The GM guys were all over the place in claims back then.
10-mpg solo solo City was impressive with a big block and towing gears what doesn’t seem so long ago. Highway maybe 12. At 55. Towing, 6-7.
24-mpg is my highway solo average in the ‘04 man trans CTD at that speed. Just under four tons as adjusted TARE.
What’s the adjusted TARE weight on that pickup of yours? Had no idea they could do that.
Never expected gasoline to ever get that close. From a per gallon cost standpoint, it didn’t need to.
Knew the advantage of gears, but, wow, power and unreal solo economy.
What’s the percentage change when towing? 30, 40 or greater penalty (at that speed)?
Solo to loaded drop if available (not towing; otherwise same circumstances)?
Thx
Bye-bye diesel forever with these little trailers.
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02-11-2018, 11:13 AM
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#58
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Dazed and Confused
Currently Looking...
1983 31' Airstream310
Hillsburgh
, Ontario
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 3,805
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Disclaimer! I'm a bit of a dinosaur with fond memories of Turbo 350/400's, Ford C6 and Chysler 727 torqueflite's, (I have the 480Le in my wife's Jaguar and a Turbo 475 in my 310).
That being said, I also like new technology, but have been very hesitant about jumping on the multispeed bandwagon. I have driven multi speed transmission vehicles and found them to be hunting all the time for the right gear, shifting up and down like crazy as soon as you touch or let off the gas, and stumbling for a gear if accelerating after almost stopping. I have never experienced this in all my years of three or four speed auto's.
As for durability......how can you install four to six more gears, with all the ancillary stuff into a smaller box, and expect me to buy the explanation that it's more durable?
If I ever bought a high multi speed transmission, which I highly doubt as I'm most likely going electric, I'd be looking at getting a remote transmission cooler and inline removable transmission filter.
Just saying; an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure; as these transmissions are not cheap to replace.
Cheers
Sidekick Tony
__________________
Per Mare, Per Terram and may all your campaigns be successful.
“It’s a recession when your neighbor loses his job; it’s a depression when you lose your own.” "Harry S Truman"
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02-12-2018, 02:07 AM
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#59
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Rivet Master
2014 31' Classic
2015 23' International
2013 25' FB International
Apache Junction
, Arizona
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 6,215
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Actually, I was told the ten speeds are a replace item. Basically not repairable at the dealership level.
__________________
WBCCI Life Member 5123, AIR 70341, 4CU, WD9EMC
TV - 2012 Dodge 2500 4x4 Cummins HO, automatic, Centramatics, Kelderman level ride airbag suspension, bed shell
2014 31' Classic w/ twin beds, 50 amp service, 1000 watt solar system, Centramatics, Tuson TPMS, 12" disc brakes, 16" tires & wheels
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02-12-2018, 06:47 AM
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#60
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Rivet Master
2007 30' Classic
Oswego
, Illinois
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,656
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Quote:
Originally Posted by switz
Actually, I was told the ten speeds are a replace item. Basically not repairable at the dealership level.
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Wellll, that's inaccurate. All transmissions, (Engines, for that matter) are a replace item if the required repair cost analysis exceeds the reman replace amount (or is even close). Labor rates are such that in a large percentage of cases, it is both cost beneficial, as well as quality control beneficial to install factory built remans. This has been the case for many years now.
__________________
-Rich-
"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." - Red Green
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