Fishtailed for first time

[tommyglen]

All you people that try to avoid the obvious solution to the bike rack problem. Get the Fiamma unit that is designed to fit, and is approved by Airstream, onto the rear of the trailer. Not cheap, like everything else Airstream, but worth the price.
Bought our 25' FC, purchased and mounted the rack (detailed instructions included) and have enjoyed wandering thousands of miles of roads, and hundreds of miles of bike trails, since.

Granted, this unit (and Airstream) has distinct weight limits, so no electric bikes. But my small wife can easily load and unload both of our bicycles. Very enjoyable.

And, No bugs to clean off!

[Dingo Girl]

Watch "Dangerous Trailers.Org Presents Trailer Sway 101" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/i2fkOVHAC8Q

This shows sway perfectly
(46 seconds long)

[Oldtrapper]

Originally Posted by Dingo Girl

Watch "Dangerous Trailers.Org Presents Trailer Sway 101" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/i2fkOVHAC8Q

This shows sway perfectly
(46 seconds long)

I love this video. The single most important thing you can do is load your trailer properly with 10-15% of the total RV weight on the hitch. If you do that, with an Airstream, all of the sway bars and fancy hitches become nice to haves.

As an engineer I explain it to people this way. Build a standard paper airplane and then put a paper clip on the back. It is unstable and won't fly very well. Move the same paper clip to the front and now the paper airplane is very stable. People have to remember, "put the paper clip on the front".

If you put a bike rack on the back of your trailer, without any other weight moved forward, you have essentially put the paper clip on the back of your plane...

I have done some scoping calculations on my 25' rear bed and I have to tell you that Airstream have really thought about the design and keeping the rig stable when reasonably loaded.

B.

[pteck]

Looks like we agree that the rear mounted hitch bike rack is fundamentally the culprit here.

That said, there are ways to mitigate the stability the stability loss.

There's now too much weight at the rear of the trailer, too far back. Either remove, bring forward more, and/or lighten that load. Another strategy is to counter-balanced to restore the right tongue weight. More specifically, the center of gravity of the trailer is too far rearward, and has to be brought back forward.

You can do this by shifting how you are loading the items within the trailer. In my case, I will be adding more tongue weight in the form of a tongue mounted generator.

In regards to general stability. What type of tires do you have on your Yukon? If it's P-rated tire, you can get quite a bit more stability by trading it for an LT-rated tire, that has stiffer sidewalls.

[delrossa]

Agree with the Fiamma Airstream approved bike rack. Have gone thousands of miles with the bikes on the back-no issues.
Sounds like u prevented an accident by using just trailer brakes. Bet that got your heart rate up.
Good luck

[B00merang]

I agree that the combination of speed and the loaded bike rack was probably the reason for the sway. And we all agree, more or less, that adding a substantial (whatever "substantial means in this case) weight to the back of our ASs is not wise, for various reasons including insufficient frames. But...why would the Flamma bike rack....which carries bikes in the same back as other makes except at a much higher cost...solve this dilemma> Makes no sense to me that all are bad...but this very expensive AS-approved one is good. jon

[OTRA15]

Because the Fiamma rack hugs the back of the AS and is actually over the rear storage area forward of the back bumper. Thus the center of gravity [incl. bikes] is much closer to the rear axle that any rack which projects aft of the back bumper by virtue of using a standard hitch receiver.

Also the Fiamma rack is relatively lightweight, and does not require a heavy steel hitch receiver to be installed.

In sum -- lighter overall weight, plus COG much closer to rear axle.

A proven combination!

Cheers,

Peter

[MaineStreamer]

Originally Posted by RickP

had to use the brake controller to get back in control.

What do you mean by "had to use the brake controller"? Don't you always have the trailer brake controller engaged when towing the Airstream? How is it even possible not to have the brake controller operate automatically when you touch the tow vehicle brake pedal?

[GMFL]

Originally Posted by MaineStreamer

What do you mean by "had to use the brake controller"? Don't you always have the trailer brake controller engaged when towing the Airstream? How is it even possible not to have the brake controller operate automatically when you touch the tow vehicle brake pedal?

I think what was meant was he manually engaged the trailer breaks with the squeezes on the controllers the put more breaking on the trailer

i.e. trailer breaks full and foot on the gas to pull the rig back straight.

[PaulnGina]

Originally Posted by devilsbox

What is the proper way to adjust the sway control?

Attachment 309674

If I remember correctly, that friction-type sway control is adjusted to the tightness you can get using just your forefinger.

Not real scientific, but it works.

[RickP]

that's correct. Had to squeeze the brake controller to stop the sway

[Adiredneck]

First, get thee one of these:

https://sherline.com/product/sherlin...-weight-scale/

Before you hitch and drive, with full fresh water tank and battle-rattle, beer and skittles on board - weigh your tongue. It needs to be at LEAST 10% - 15% of trailer weight. You determine trailer weight by going to a truck stop and weighing on a CAT scale. Weigh with TT/TV unhitched for actual independent weights of both (tongue weight should be 10-15% of that , and then hitch and re-weigh (lets you know how much weight your WD hitch is redistributing.

Get a front hitch receiver installed on the Yukon. You can get them at etrailer or elsewhere, and a bike rack to fit the receiver. Bugs on the bikes beats fishtailing down a mountain. Caveat: Weigh your rig at the CAT scale first, with all equipment you bring camping. I'm betting between gear, passengers and trailer, you are pretty close to maxing your GVW on the Jimmy - *do not exceed GVW or gross axle weight or bad things happen!* Do this before adding 200 lbs of hitch, receiver rack and bikes to front.

Lastly - run your truck tires at max pressure. Soft tires can precipitate sway and also catastrophic tire failure.

Your reaction with the brake controller was perfect, but the experience was a warning shot over the bow that something is seriously out of whack with your rig, and, if not fixed, will happen again. Be safe!

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

Aside from the safety aspect of sway, if something were to happen, you likely would have insurance issues for loading outside Mfg. recommended specs. Same thing can happen with overloading your TV should something happen. Always best to check out the specs; don't adjust outside Mfg. recommended specs; you may be on the hook without insurance coverage....I doubt any of the "experts" who may advise otherwise, would stand up in court for you should something happen...safety...my 2 cents.

Wrong

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by Adiredneck

First, get thee one of these:

https://sherline.com/product/sherlin...-weight-scale/

Before you hitch and drive, with full fresh water tank and battle-rattle, beer and skittles on board - weigh your tongue. It needs to be at LEAST 10% - 15% of trailer weight. You determine trailer weight by going to a truck stop and weighing on a CAT scale. Weigh with TT/TV unhitched for actual independent weights of both (tongue weight should be 10-15% of that , and then hitch and re-weigh (lets you know how much weight your WD hitch is redistributing.

Get a front hitch receiver installed on the Yukon. You can get them at etrailer or elsewhere, and a bike rack to fit the receiver. Bugs on the bikes beats fishtailing down a mountain. Caveat: Weigh your rig at the CAT scale first, with all equipment you bring camping. I'm betting between gear, passengers and trailer, you are pretty close to maxing your GVW on the Jimmy - *do not exceed GVW or gross axle weight or bad things happen!* Do this before adding 200 lbs of hitch, receiver rack and bikes to front.

Lastly - run your truck tires at max pressure. Soft tires can precipitate sway and also catastrophic tire failure.

Your reaction with the brake controller was perfect, but the experience was a warning shot over the bow that something is seriously out of whack with your rig, and, if not fixed, will happen again. Be safe!

TT tires at max pressure, NOT TV tires. Which are set according to Load.

[dhroberts]

Go ProPride. I have since day 1 and have never had a problem. This said, I do not have a bike rack at the rig's rear nor do I ever 'go a little too fast' slight downgrade or not. I assume that any optional weight in the inside of your rig is well positioned and stable. Good luck.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by slowmover

Wrong

Wrong? Expected someone to disagree...not sure why you always seem to disagree with staying within manufacturers guidelines for safety? Your years of driving experience are valuable slowmover, but I for one, will stay within Mfg. guidelines and their specs for safety and insurance purposes...

[PatLee]

I would think that carrying the lightest weight bicycles on the flame would also help, yes?

[pteck]

Originally Posted by dhroberts

Go ProPride. I have since day 1 and have never had a problem. This said, I do not have a bike rack at the rig's rear nor do I ever 'go a little too fast' slight downgrade or not. I assume that any optional weight in the inside of your rig is well positioned and stable. Good luck.

Having a propride doesn't absolve one from paying attention to loading. It might be more resilient to sway, but an unbalanced rig is inherently unstable and can still bite in the wrong situation.

[OTRA15]

Originally Posted by PatLee

I would think that carrying the lightest weight bicycles on the flame would also help, yes?

I seem to recall a total bike weight limit of 75 lbs. or so.

"Fiamma weight limit" in new search box above yields:

https://www.google.com/search?q=fiam...=airforums.com

Cheers,

Peter

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

Wrong? Expected someone to disagree...not sure why you always seem to disagree with staying within manufacturers guidelines for safety? Your years of driving experience are valuable slowmover, but I for one, will stay within Mfg. guidelines and their specs for safety and insurance purposes...

Your conclusions (whomever believes that) aren’t borne out by facts. Both in terms of insurance coverage and what in fact DOES constitute “safety”. My experience — personal and professional — indeed does give perspective others might not have, but the education is available. You won’t find the word “safe” used by the vehicle manufacturers without a terrific number of qualifications. In short, not at all what you believe (magic thinking)

Yours is the dangerous combination compared to those better chosen. Far more likely to wreck based solely on the TV, and wrecks far more likely to be self-induced. (Yeah!! Thats the one I want for my family!).

You can start with what you DONT understand about manufacturers guidelines. Plenty of SAE papers that, even when badly done (and some are) illuminate the difficulty of A=B=C.

In short, your TT is the best design. Your TV, the absolute worst.

Some facts should stick out. The pickup tendency to roll over. It’s very high. Rollovers are 3% of serious accidents. 25% of fatalities. And when not fatal, terrific life-changing injuries. These are most likely to happen on clear days and on straight roads. As simple as — likeliest to be — trying to correct from bumping a curb, or having a steer tire drop two inches off the pavement. (Buh Bye)

But, “you” (whomever) wants to believe only a pickup can be used (everyone else does; lemming-think). Even though we’ve showed time and again how WD works. TW ISN'T a problem. You want it to be.

God forbid your golf buddies saw you in mommy’s SUV or minivan.

The HP/Weight Ratio. Better than a pickup. Braking ability, same. And most of all, (like this TT) the ability to stay upright in a test. A slalom. A demonstration of what happens in the moment of a rollover. Caused by using a pickup. As other vehicle designs wouldn’t have been upset.

You wanted it, you got it. So, to mirror your question, why on earth would you advise others that it’s a good choice? (What’s the weight of the gear which CANNOT under any circumstance be carried in the TT or TV passenger compartment? That’s the demonstration of HOW your advice “might” be worth considering).

The usual comeback is how so many others are just fine with pickups. But a serious wreck need only be once. Like being gunshot. Guys like yourself believe it advisable to travel in a war zone unarmed and without armor. Despite the fact that a single shot has life-changing or ending probabilities.

You won’t be able to shout over the laughter by claiming skilled driving and good habits will save the day. EVERYONE is prone to a moments inattention. Of being ill. Of being confused or overtired. Ones personal abilities, skill or luck are perfectly irrelevant to a vehicle discussion.

And you’ve wholly ignored that the majority of miles (even for full timers) are solo. And likely NOT loaded for camping. Thus worsening the already bad proclivities of a pickup.

You don’t ever exceed 62-mph in that thing, do you? They’re barely able to stay upright past 55 if anything at all gets funny. Solo. (Towing, it’s worse).

Sure, what’s different about your experience and mine is that I’ll keep mine out of situations you don’t recognize as a problem. Or, that I know the solution already. Doesn’t change bad vehicle spec. Needs to be other reasons to use one.

Ever allow less than 200’ or separation between you and others? May as well start there. Cancelling cruise and slowing to 15-mph or more below other traffic to get them away is SOP. Doesn’t matter in the least that the others are moving away. It’s NEVER acceptable. Not for even a short amount of time.

You’re the crippled animal near a herd. Can’t do anything but continue in a straight line AND can’t stop. Nothing but disadvantage. (Yeah, sign me up for one a them things).

Same thing with the other high COG and straight axle 4WD vehicles. What they’re called doesn’t matter.

(Th funniest line of late I see is that pickups are “designed for towing”).

Shall I keep going? “You” (whomever) is never serious as a student. So what would be the point? Besides that it’s easy to fix. Easy to set hitch rigging. And easy to acquire better driving habits.

I take it for granted that the worst AS owners are in pickups. I’m not ever disappointed. That proof is available to anyone on the highways.

.