Fiat-Chrysler Diesels Following in VWs Footsteps?

[Caffeinated]

Originally Posted by AWCHIEF

My gosh! Sure glad not everybody feels that way about environment and the air we breathe.

I grew up in W Los Angeles. I think the EPA has helped clean the air over what it was when I grew up. Is it perfect? Of course not. But it's not like Bejing, either.

Mike

[r carl]

Originally Posted by AWCHIEF

My gosh! Sure glad not everybody feels that way about environment and the air we breathe.

I think they still sell leaded gas in Mexico. I wonder if there is a catalytic to be found in all of China. Many many countries don't have requirements like we do. I would think a diesel built right before DEF was required burns clean enough for now..

[AWCHIEF]

Originally Posted by r carl

I think they still sell leaded gas in Mexico. I wonder if there is a catalytic to be found in all of China. Many many countries don't have requirements like we do. I would think a diesel built right before DEF was required burns clean enough for now..

And many countries have much stricter emission laws. Might want to recheck about leaded still available anywhere in the US.

[r carl]

Originally Posted by AWCHIEF

And many countries have much stricter emission laws. Might want to recheck about leaded still available anywhere in the US.

I cant check now, I'm still choking on the 10% ethanol they are shoving down my throat.

[Isuzusweet]

This is news??? No big surprise to me that others cheated, paid off executives and testers in the EPA with high paying jobs after "retirement"; but it took a couple of university students to find out. The EPA is just mad that they have egg on their faces.

Owners of American diesels (Cummins, Powerstroke and Duramax's) shouldn't be worried as your government will protect your right to pollute as much as you want to. If you're another foreign diesel though, you'd better watch out.

Cheers
Tony

[Nothinghead]

Originally Posted by Isuzusweet

This is news??? No big surprise to me that others cheated, paid off executives and testers in the EPA with high paying jobs after "retirement"; but it took a couple of university students to find out. The EPA is just mad that they have egg on their faces.

Owners of American diesels (Cummins, Powerstroke and Duramax's) shouldn't be worried as your government will protect your right to pollute as much as you want to. If you're another foreign diesel though, you'd better watch out.

Cheers
Tony

This^

[dkottum]

Let them play their game, we've never had such a competent, comfortable, satisfying vehicle and have every intention of keeping it. Of course we're keeping our like-new 11 year old 50 mpg VW TDI as well.

[cabinetmaker]

The government coming down on any of today's diesel makers is a joke. Ever seen a B-52 take off?

They say that the smoke and pollutants from forest fires, volcanoes and any other natural emitter is far worse than what man creates. Cow dung...yep ammonia and methane main cause of acid rain.

Can't wait to see what kind of pollution equipment the EPA is going to start requiring on the rear end of those!

[Williker]

Hopefully they do away with the more draconian requirements. The Federal EPA has gotten a little out of control the past 8 years in regards to some of the vehicle standards.

[Tomzstream]

I am a big proponent of clean air being a child of the 60's/70's. I have owned several diesel Mercedes cars, but thave never towed with them. My current long distance (anything over 50 miles) highway cruiser is a 2014 E-250 2.1 Liter 4 cyl BiTurbo Bluetec. Have had the DEF alert / NOX Sensor replacement issue that many 2014's have had including the Sprinter 3.0L platform (which I also owned in a Roadtrek, but came back to the Airstream Trailer way of thinking). BTW, I am getting 50+ MPG on the highway.

Lots of comments here about air quality so I feel free to expound on those.
One only has to look to California for their response to air quality standards and shifting priorities. This time of year, its all about particulate matter and most modern Diesels handle this well with filters. But California once considered banning the sale of Diesel fuel altogeher! Then they made greenhouse gas emissions a priority, in particular with tough standards on CO2. Then it became clear that Diesels were far superior with their increased efficiency. They now allow Diesel car sales and the actual emissions testing is less troublesome than that of gas cars. In the summer, its all about hydrocarbons and NOX and Ozone. The switch to Ethanol as a oxigenator is also a good thing as it got the MTBE, a known carcinogen, out of the fuel and the waterways (yes much originated from watercraft). I lived in Folsom for ten years and our water supply came from that resevoir and the MTBE thing was a real threat.

For Towing I chose a new Silverado High Country 5.3L with all the Bells and Whistles. I have owned the 5.3 in a much older Silverado that I kept for 17 years and it still ran great. Actually traded it in for 8K on the new one! I get 24MPG on the Highway and a bit more running at 45-50 MPH. I love the 4cyl mode.

But the point of my post is simply that one should calculate the bang for buck rather than the MPG. That is, how far can you go on a dollar of fuel (yes thise of us in the 70's remember that was all night around town). With Diesel creeping up again, this being heating oil season, the bang for buck measure is declining again. And the differential for regular gas vs diesel is also significant and brings my Silverado up to par with many of your quoted Diesel truck stats. So I like my Gas truck.

But the Car is a different story. A comparable gas E-Class get about half the mileage of my Diesel AND requires Premium unleaded so the bang for buck is actually less that half that of my Diesel.

Not surprised the FCM diesel are under scrutiny. Mercedes is still having their systems reviewed as well. Daimler pretty much pulled all of their plans for 2017 Diesels except the GLS. They are still trying to get it certified. But for now, I think my E-250 has actually gone up in demand and resale value, not that its that great. I can see a scenario where the FCM trucks are allowed to stay on the roads and become more desirable in the used market should the EPA make it too difficulat for them to market diesels in the future, nuch like what is happening with Mercedes. VW on the other hand is simply screwed as they want all of their diesel cars off the road.

And the trend is toward smaller 4 cly bi-turbo gas engines in cars, and the diesel demand will fall off significantly as these achieve better performance.

Trucks are a different story. And of course the bang for buck quotient is but one consideration when choosing a TV. I like the High Country's creature comforts, ride, and safety features, esp the Active Lane keeping. That feature alone can save you a lot of grief and money avoiding a road runoff and subsequent damage to your trailer. But to each their own!

Not saying I won't switch to a diesel SUV at some point, but I like a truck for other things, and I still prefer half tons to the HD models for ride quality and other safety features. We'll see what Mercedes does with their new truck.

[franklyfrank]

Originally Posted by Mike S.

Just thinking out loud, and not meaning to hijack a thread. It would be interesting to see what the maximum efficiency could be achieved on a diesel motor without having the emission restrictions, and to compare that to what we are dealing with currently. Would the mileage increase be enough to offset any increase in pollutants? If you use half (random number) the amount of fuel to go the same distance, are the pollutants equal? Just wondering. Mike

Its a very interesting and sensible take on this subject.
Its the age old glass half full half empty. Common sense thinking and solutions were never embraced by the Green movement. They can only think in terms of the scorched earth solutions.

[rostam]

I doubt you could double your MPG by removing all the clean diesel components. The emissions would likely more than double though.

I appreciate the better air quality that we have here compared to some other countries. EPA regulations have helped with that and with innovation and improvement in engine technology. However, regulations should be sensible. If the requirements are too drastic (and beyond the capability of the current technology), it will become too costly for businesses to operate. Some may shut down, others will resort to cheating (like VW and FCA). Also, EPA's emissions requirements should be based on energy content, not volume (a gallon of diesel has 30% more energy than a gallon of gas, and you can drive more miles with a gallon of diesel). This puts diesel at a disadvantage.

[tjdonahoe]

I have been around the big truck Diesel engines all my life, they are so much cleaner now , they last longer, my last cat engine has 1.4 million miles and the head and turbo never been off, and the fuel mileage is up...60's-80's the truck engines were lucky to get 3-4 mpg, now 6 plus ,My 07 ram with 6.7 was getting 16-17 empty and pulling the as 12.5 coast to coast
,my new 17 ram with 6.7 is getting upwards of 20.3 empty , should get 13-14 pulling the as ?

[AL4411]

I tow with a 2015 RAM 1500 Promaster Van. Thanks for this heads up. It will be interesting to see what plays out with the assembled in NAFTA qualified Mexico to beat the Chicken Tax, Fiat Ducato diesel van. It burns very clean with DEF. I get 20 mpg towing and 26-28 mpg without the trailer.

[gator.bigfoot]

I think that much of this will be a mute point. Listening to German radio last week, the politicians are in favor of banning all diesel cars. VW has already announced that there will be no more diesels in the USA and in Canada they are not sure if they will continue with them. Once diesels are banned in Germany VW and Fiat and anyone else will no longer make them for any market. VW is currently working with Ballard to get a hydrogen car. To me that will be the only viable alternative once they figure out the stations hurdle. They just launched a hydrogen plane with the help of Hydrogenics and with the same company are launching Hydrogen trains in Germany.


The days of diesels are numbered. As much as like them they will soon be gone. My VW has 500k on it and my ML is approaching 200k. I hope that they can figure it out, but I'm not holding my breath.

[dkottum]

I think posters are getting ahead of the truth,and some are creating their own stories.

We have had VW TDI's for 20 years, compared to the gas models we also owned, they performed better in every way.

We have had a gas Ram 1500 and now a diesel Ram 1500, the diesel performs better than the gas model in every way.

Diesels give exceptional fuel economy, but their strength is hauling and towing while delivering exceptional economy. I don't think they're going away any time soon. At least not from our garage, or the people who haul and tow for a living.

[gator.bigfoot]

Quoted from http://blog.caranddriver.com/volkswa...-never-return/

Now we have it from the top. Hinrich J. Woebcken (pictured), president and CEO of Volkswagen Group of America, told us, “I wish to make clear that the push for diesel for the brand is done” in North America.

Here is an article talking about banning all gas and diesels by 2030
http://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/b...a-1115671.html

http://ballard.com/about-ballard/new...s09261601.aspx
http://insideevs.com/volkswagen-grou...or-80-million/

https://phys.org/news/2016-09-world-...e-germany.html

http://www.canadianmanufacturing.com...mpaign=160927G

[bono]

Green Party politicians? Sounds right... majority of the cars sold in Europe are diesels (something around 55%). In premium market it is even higher. Diesel in Europe is far from extinction.

I am European, always drove diesels. Driving diesel in the US. However, this is my last diesel, at least as long as I live in the US. Diesel owners are second category drivers here.

Originally Posted by gator.bigfoot

I think that much of this will be a mute point. Listening to German radio last week, the politicians are in favor of banning all diesel cars. (...)

[jcl]

While the EPA has issued a notice, and outlined the basics of their concerns, they have not provided many details as of yet. However, there are multiple suits launched, and one of them contains the results of independent testing. The info below has not been proven in court, but IMO is helpful in understanding what the auxiliary control devices were likely doing on the FCA 3.0 diesel. The EPA wrote what caused the devices to modify the emissions controls, but not the figures that seem to be the triggers.

The suit claims that "Fiat Chrysler intentionally turns off emissions treatment, in violation of EPA requirements, because without cheating emissions, RAM 1500 EcoDiesels could not achieve the fuel economy, range, towing power or performance that Fiat Chrysler promises customers."

The applicable standard both at the federal level and in California, where the lawsuit is filed, is 50 mg/mile of NOx for “FTP Style” driving, (i.e., city driving).

“The RAM 1500 emits an average of 159 mg/mile of NOx and a maximum of 1,283 on flat roads, and on hills 222 mg/mile of NOx with a maximum of 1,859 mg/mile,” the complaint states. “On highway driving the average was 232 mg/mile and a maximum of 1,615 mg/mile of NOx, compared to the 70 mg/mile standard. On hills the numbers are 353 and 3,240 mg/mile.”

The firm’s testing also revealed a defeat device triggered by ambient temperature that significantly diminishes the performance of the NOx emission reduction system, with ambient threshold temperatures above approximately 95 F and below 40-50 F. NOx emissions increase by a factor of 10 when above or below these threshold temperatures, the suit states.

Testing also revealed the presence of a defeat device when ascending hills, as the emission control system appears to be significantly diminished after a short period of steady driving on hills.

Full Article Here

The distinction with VW (who at the time denied installing devices to bypass the tests, unlike FCA) is that the VW devices knew when an emissions test was being run, and turned off the emissions controls if the vehicle wasn't on a test run (as determined by other sensors). The FCA software appears to turn off the emissions controls when the vehicle is operating at conditions outside of the standard test cycle, but importantly, still under conditions expected to be encountered in normal practice. That is the EPA criteria. A manufacturer can apply for permission to use an auxiliary device such as these, for example to protect the engine from damage, but not if it is enabled under conditions encountered in normal operation. The EPA found the excess emissions simply by running other standard EPA test cycles.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by gator.bigfoot

Now we have it from the top. Hinrich J. Woebcken (pictured), president and CEO of Volkswagen Group of America, told us, “I wish to make clear that the push for diesel for the brand is done” in North America.

Importantly, that is for the VW brand, which will likely spill over to Porsche and Audi.

BMW has received certification for all of their 2017 diesel models in North America. Not sure if their figures will climb above the current 4% of their sales if they are one of a diminishing number of sellers of diesel light duty vehicles.