Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 01-16-2017, 02:00 PM   #41
jcl
Rivet Master
 
Currently Looking...
Vancouver , British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,904
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkottum View Post
We have had VW TDI's for 20 years, compared to the gas models we also owned, they performed better in every way.

We have had a gas Ram 1500 and now a diesel Ram 1500, the diesel performs better than the gas model in every way.
Except apparently in emissions. Or, if they meet the emissions standard, in cost. While it is possible to meet emissions standards, that becomes very expensive and diesels may simply become extinct in the passenger car market due to their lack of competitiveness.

FCA's president recently estimated company costs of a half billion euros for them to meet the next level of the Euro 6 emission standard, just as a technology injection for the diesel products, not necessary for the gasoline engines. That supports the opinion that the future of diesel vehicles in Europe is far from certain.
__________________

jcl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2017, 09:28 AM   #42
Rivet Master
 
2017 30' Classic
Anna Maria , Florida
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by gator.bigfoot View Post
Quoted from http://blog.caranddriver.com/volkswa...-never-return/

Now we have it from the top. Hinrich J. Woebcken (pictured), president and CEO of Volkswagen Group of America, told us, “I wish to make clear that the push for diesel for the brand is done” in North America.

Here is an article talking about banning all gas and diesels by 2030
http://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/b...a-1115671.html

http://ballard.com/about-ballard/new...s09261601.aspx
http://insideevs.com/volkswagen-grou...or-80-million/

https://phys.org/news/2016-09-world-...e-germany.html

http://www.canadianmanufacturing.com...mpaign=160927G
So much for pointless political hype. Banning all diesels in Europe within the next 13 years is an absurd notion. Over 50 % of cars on the road in Europe are diesels. To remove that vehicle stock from the roads of Europe and replace them with an alternate within 13 years is simply not possible. Lets get real here folks. The diesel is not going anywhere anytime soon from the world. Not in the lifetime of anyone participating on this forum.
With all the technological advancement during the last 50 years there is nothing on the horizon to replace the ICE, gas or diesel anytime soon. What is out there now couldn't exist without subsidies or are in the experimental stage. Alternate energy source is a tough challenge it can't be forced top down or by political ideology. It needs the time to evolve one building block at the time.
__________________

franklyfrank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2017, 11:43 AM   #43
jcl
Rivet Master
 
Currently Looking...
Vancouver , British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,904
Quote:
Originally Posted by franklyfrank View Post
So much for pointless political hype. Banning all diesels in Europe within the next 13 years is an absurd notion. Over 50 % of cars on the road in Europe are diesels. To remove that vehicle stock from the roads of Europe and replace them with an alternate within 13 years is simply not possible. Lets get real here folks. The diesel is not going anywhere anytime soon from the world. Not in the lifetime of anyone participating on this forum.
With all the technological advancement during the last 50 years there is nothing on the horizon to replace the ICE, gas or diesel anytime soon. What is out there now couldn't exist without subsidies or are in the experimental stage. Alternate energy source is a tough challenge it can't be forced top down or by political ideology. It needs the time to evolve one building block at the time.
The bans will be in large cities, where smog is a bigger problem, and it won't take 13 years. They are talking about restricting new sales, not banning existing vehicles from the road (except in those large centres).

What will replace those diesels are gasoline engines, with less displacement, direct injection, turbochargers, more multi speed transmissions, and often, hybrid powertrains. Pretty much what is already happening. EVs will expand their share of the market, for trips that don't need the range of a ICE.

The costs of having diesels meet Euro 6 emissions standards is what will kill them in Europe, unless government provides significant subsidies. And that would be a recipe for failure.
jcl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2017, 02:12 PM   #44
4 Rivet Member
 
bono's Avatar
 
Mountain View , California
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 389
There is no significant shift from diesels to other type of engines in Europe. Euro 6 is force since 2014 as far as I know. I have not heard about any manufacturer to stop selling diesels when the standard was introduced.
__________________
BMW X5
SOB 33 ft trailer
Propride 1400
bono is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2017, 03:37 PM   #45
jcl
Rivet Master
 
Currently Looking...
Vancouver , British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,904
Quote:
Originally Posted by bono View Post
There is no significant shift from diesels to other type of engines in Europe. Euro 6 is force since 2014 as far as I know. I have not heard about any manufacturer to stop selling diesels when the standard was introduced.
I don't think that they stopped selling diesel passenger vehicles (I think it was applicable for registrations after September 2015) but they are saying that it is prohibitively expensive to develop them, so going forward we will see fewer diesel vehicles in cars, while they carry on in heavier trucks. It is about the investment required and cost competitiveness.

A few more cases like VW (Renault?) and that timeline could accelerate, more for reasons of corporate reputation than anything else.

Marchionne, the president of FCA on this topic, a few days ago:

Quote:
What is happening unfortunately is as we move up the level of technological intervention in diesel with Euro 6 (emissions standards) in Europe, the cost of the technology is going to push diesels right to the edges of what is (economically possible). These engines, fully loaded up with scrubbing equipment, with SCR (selective catalytic reduction) or some type of scrubbing mechanism is going to push the price of diesel solutions beyond the combination of gas and electrical. And I think the real risk of diesel is that it will actually be replaced as an economically viable solution as the result of other technologies displacing it.
I think its future in at least that segment (light vehicles) is suspect. On the industrial side (trucks, tractors and construction equipment) nobody is going to touch diesel. It will continue to be relevant. On the passenger car side, if you ask me 10 years out, I think it will have limited use. A lot of it depends on how costly the technology to clean it up is. Right now it is prohibitive.
Full article here
jcl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2017, 03:48 PM   #46
4 Rivet Member
 
bono's Avatar
 
Mountain View , California
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 389
The point is Euro 6 is in place already. So, the technology should be developed already. Or some companies were not able to deliver and they cheated... I do not know... To be honest I do not know what the next step after Euro 6 is. If I am still in the US, my next car will be gas (tow vehicle). The second one is electric already.
__________________
BMW X5
SOB 33 ft trailer
Propride 1400
bono is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2017, 04:37 PM   #47
jcl
Rivet Master
 
Currently Looking...
Vancouver , British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,904
Quote:
Originally Posted by bono View Post
The point is Euro 6 is in place already. ....I do not know what the next step after Euro 6 is.
The various tiers each came out 3 to 5 years apart, which would put the next one at 2018 or 2019, all things being equal.

But (and this is conjecture) I think the next step will be enforcing the existing standards, and making them more applicable to the real world. A Euro 6 Real World standard. They have announced that they will be doing this in 2017, to go after the vehicles that showed up to 7 times the emissions that they emit on the dyno. In a test ADAC in Germany did of 69 Euro vehicles, all which had passed the dyno test, 30 failed the real world test. These were all diesels, which have a problem with NOx, which is what the Europeans are concerned about regarding smog and public health impacts.

Taping over door seams and grills to improve aerodynamics, disconnecting alternators to reduce parasitic loads, removing seats to reduce weight, and so on, will be out.

Several manufacturers have not been able to have their vehicles approved for 2017, despite having "passed" the earlier standard.

So while I agree the Euro 6 standard has been out for a few years, I think that now it will have more teeth.

The parallel to this in North America is that it seems some manufacturers have not received certification for their 2017 diesel models, and so are continuing to sell 2016 models (FCA being one of these).

Jeff
jcl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2017, 06:29 PM   #48
Capnttom
 
Currently Looking...
Currently Looking...
Cypress , Texas
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 20
Check this out, as it is germane to the discussion: http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/17/norwa...source=twitter

A sign of things to come? I hope not; have always loved my diesels!



Tom & Cathy
Looking for an AS
2014 Roadtrek Adventurous
2016 Ram Megacab CTD 4x4
__________________
Tom & Cathy
2014 Roadtrek RS Adventurous
2015 Ram 1500 Ecodiesel
capnttom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2017, 07:46 PM   #49
2 Rivet Member
 
1990 25' Excella
St Lawrence , Pennsylvania
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 34
From an article explaining the EU rules about emissions:

According to the relevant EU rules, "the use of defeat devices that reduce the effectiveness of emission control systems shall be prohibited," except in cases where automakers decide to use them. "The prohibition shall not apply," say the rules, when "the need for the device is justified in terms of protecting the engine against damage or accident and for safe operation of the vehicle." Carmakers make wide, and sometimes liberal use of this handy provision. A favorite is to specify outside temperatures where the engine could be damaged with the emissions control on. Carmakers proudly show how their cars are tested north of the Polar Circle and in the searing heat of the Sahara, but their feeble emission controls must be protected from themselves at temperatures prevailing in most parts of Europe? Sure. South Koreaís Environment Ministry complained that the Nissan Qashqai turns off emissions control at temperatures above 35 degree centigrade. If you really want to fool testing, then you turn off emissions control below 20 degrees, and above 30 degrees centigrade. GMís Opel arm admitted to doing just that. By sheer happenstance, EU specifications say that tests are to be performed at temperature between 20 and 30 centigrade, the only temperature band where Opel somewhat reliably keeps its emission controls running. Even that would not be illegal according to the generous EU rules. Opel is in hot water because it allegedly turned off emissions control in a number of other situations that donít fit through generous EU loopholes.
rjmaype is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2017, 12:30 AM   #50
jcl
Rivet Master
 
Currently Looking...
Vancouver , British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,904
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjmaype View Post
From an article explaining the EU rules about emissions:

... "The prohibition shall not apply,say the rules, when the need for the device is justified in terms of protecting the engine against damage or accident and for safe operation of the vehicle." Carmakers make wide, and sometimes liberal use of this handy provision.
There is another condition in the EU rules, beyond the 'protect engine against damage' clause, which is 5.2 (a). It states: 5.2 (b) the device does not function beyond the requirements of engine starting.

Seems pretty clear. Especially when combined with the real world testing clause, ensuring that on the road, the vehicle performs as on the test cycle.
jcl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2017, 12:39 AM   #51
jcl
Rivet Master
 
Currently Looking...
Vancouver , British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,904
Quote:
Originally Posted by rostam View Post
I doubt you could double your MPG by removing all the clean diesel components. The emissions would likely more than double though.

I appreciate the better air quality that we have here compared to some other countries. EPA regulations have helped with that and with innovation and improvement in engine technology. However, regulations should be sensible. If the requirements are too drastic (and beyond the capability of the current technology), it will become too costly for businesses to operate. Some may shut down, others will resort to cheating (like VW and FCA). Also, EPA's emissions requirements should be based on energy content, not volume (a gallon of diesel has 30% more energy than a gallon of gas, and you can drive more miles with a gallon of diesel). This puts diesel at a disadvantage.
Agree, the potential increase in fuel economy (with and without emissions controls) is actually a small fraction of the potential increase in emissions.

Euro regulations changed the NOx limit 7 times. Nobody is going to get 7 times the mileage by taking off that new pollution control system. In fact, the new model is more efficient, despite the pollution control system.

The fact that many manufacturers meet the standard means that it is not technically impossible. Now that testing is being redone, including on the road, those manufacturers that don't meet the published standard are front and centre. They are the ones that can't get certifications for new models.

EPA standards are in grams per mile, not gallon. Diesels are challenged not by the energy content of the fuel, but by the nature of the diesel combustion cycle.
__________________

jcl is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ford Offers New 200k mi Warranty for Diesels Stream 1529 Tow Vehicles 14 11-04-2007 07:58 AM
1/2 Ton Diesels in the Wings Denis4x4 Tow Vehicles 9 07-22-2007 02:41 PM
Cold weather and diesels BillTex On The Road... 63 02-10-2007 11:25 PM
Used Diesels Asianflava Tow Vehicles 28 08-15-2006 08:41 PM
Classic Diesels for sale ViewRVs Airstream Motorhome Forums 7 11-19-2003 06:37 PM


Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Airstream, Inc. or any of its affiliates. Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:56 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
×