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Old 02-28-2014, 08:49 PM   #1
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Electric Drive Vehicles Don't Reduce Emissions

A study was recently released by North Carolina State University that provides evidence supporting the fact that electric drive vehicles (EDVs) have little impact on reducing emissions. As an engineering audience that knows efficiency when they see it, most ECN readers will throw their hands in the air having known this for some time.
The study concluded that even a drastic, sudden increase in EDV-use by 2050 wouldn’t reduce emissions of air pollutants, such as carbon dioxide, sulfur dioxide, or nitrogen oxides. Through 108 different scenarios in a model, the researchers found that even if EDVs made up 42 percent of passenger vehicles in the U.S., there would be little or no reduction in the emission of key air pollutants

Electric drive vehicles don’t reduce emissions
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Old 02-28-2014, 09:36 PM   #2
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There are over 300,000,000 vehicles registered in the US. Not all are driven every day, but EDVs, because most would be commuter cars, would be. 42% would be 126,000,000 vehicles. If only 100,000,000 of those were driven daily and needed to be re-charged, can you just imagine the drain on the electric grid of this country when one hundred million cars are plugged in?

That's a lot of electricity. Most electricity is made by burning something.

What would you like me to burn, and where would you like me to burn it?

Has anyone thought this through?

Oh,,,,excuse me,,,,,,I forgot. Electricity comes from the receptacle in the wall.......
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Old 02-28-2014, 09:54 PM   #3
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Just returned from SoCal and the acres of land being used for solar farms and windmill installations is staggering. There is a correlation between the price increases on veggies and cotton and the vast amounts of ag land that has been taken out of production to create alternative energy.
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Old 02-28-2014, 10:49 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denis4x4 View Post
Just returned from SoCal and the acres of land being used for solar farms and windmill installations is staggering. There is a correlation between the price increases on veggies and cotton and the vast amounts of ag land that has been taken out of production to create alternative energy.
That's OK.. We can buy our food from Mexico, Central and South America and ship it here using electric powered vehicles.

Can't we?

Oh....I forgot......We're already doing that,,,,,,except for the electric powered vehicle part. That part will make it all better. Won't it?
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Old 02-28-2014, 11:40 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denis4x4 View Post
Just returned from SoCal and the acres of land being used for solar farms and windmill installations is staggering. There is a correlation between the price increases on veggies and cotton and the vast amounts of ag land that has been taken out of production to create alternative energy.
Please note that they are not taking ag land out of production; those solar thermal plants are being built in dry lakebeds.

Ag production in CA is limited by water - not by available land.

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Old 02-28-2014, 11:59 PM   #6
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Well, there's no free lunch. Although it's interesting this thread would be started on a forum dedicated to travel trailers which can't be pulled by electric vehicles to begin with.
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Old 03-01-2014, 12:11 AM   #7
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Solar array

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Originally Posted by barts View Post
Please note that they are not taking ag land out of production; those solar thermal plants are being built in dry lakebeds.

Ag production in CA is limited by water - not by available land.

- Bart
Someone might want you to think that no ag land is being taken out of production, but that's not always the case. There is a very large solar array near our home in Walnut Grove, CA, on Twin Cities Road about a quarter mile west of Interstate 5, and about two miles east of the Sacramento River, and one mile from Snodgrass Slough. It is located on land that was ag land when we moved there in 1972, and probably for generations before that.
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Old 03-01-2014, 12:42 AM   #8
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Dude, this thread is hilarious. As a native Sacramentan and a member of an agricultural family, I'm more offended by the real estate bubble-built stucco monstrosity starter-castle neighborhoods that have buried the old Elk Grove, West Sac and Natomas river bottom farmland than a solar farm. I mean, you can't take a drive down I-5, anywhere between Stockton and the Grapevine, and tell me that the agricultural acreage in our fair state is being maxed out.

As Olympia (and Bart) used to say, it's the water. Unless those 'staggeringly' large solar farms are somehow creating the drought conditions we've had these past few years (now there's a theory for you) they aren't the primary reason produce prices are on the rise. Of course, higher transportation costs play as much, if not more, of a role as lack of water. But there's nothing we can do about them high gas prices. If only there was an alternative...
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Old 03-01-2014, 05:57 AM   #9
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Agriculture and Energy Issue - Stealing this Thread

OK - electric cars, energy creation, water issues -

AND

Government mandated use of alcohol in gasoline.

All of these arguments - one question.

Can ANYONE tell me just how many gallons equivalent of fuel (tractors, trucks, water transfer, distillation, distribution) are required to produce just ONE gallon of grain alcohol that is blended in with gasoline???

I propose one equation, less government = cheaper and simpler living.
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Old 03-01-2014, 06:00 AM   #10
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I have lived in both he Sacramento area and the Raleigh area in recent years. I saw the build out of the Natomas / Sac River Flood plain first hand. Its true, urban sprawl is more a threat to farmland than "Solar Farms". Besides, SMUD (the local utility) has a great program to promote rooftop solar on many of these same houses.

Not so in NC. This study looks to be inspired by contributions from Duke Energy, who owns the state of NC. The Governor is a life long Duke executive and is currently embroiled in a Federal investigation for being too lax in the enforcement of environmental cleanup of Duke Energy Coal Ash waste ponds scattered throughout the state, including the recent environmental disaster of the spill on the Dan River.

Duke is also fighting to have net metering rates cut in half for rooftop solar installations... 5 cents instead of 11 or twelve cents as they currently are, effectively killing the incentive to install rooftop solar.

I moved to FL where I received an incentive of $2 per watt to install a 7.8 kWh (thats $15,600) from FPL on top of the Federal tax credit. The money for this program came from the funds originally slated for Nuclear plants. I alsoget true net metering and have a special smart meter to handle it.

I generate enough to power my house and then some. For the last month, I just generated 850kWh and thats in the short day length season. I am considering an electric vehicle but currently drive a 2014 E-Class Bluetec that gets 45 mpg so I am already reducing CO2 and other emissions, but having a true zero emissions vehicle is attractive. Having a B-Van with an all electric toad is attractive, and we may move in that direction. I really like the Mercedes B-Class CAR, which is being built with a Tesla drivetrain.

So in short, the NC State study is highly suspect and rooftop solar is a great way to live a sustainable lifestyle, including generating power for not only your house but your transportation.
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Old 03-01-2014, 06:04 AM   #11
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PS, the NC legislature also passed a law to TAX electric vehicles to the tune of $100 a year because they are losing tax revenues from fuel sales... another clue for you.
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Old 03-01-2014, 06:22 AM   #12
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PS, the NC legislature also passed a law to TAX electric vehicles to the tune of $100 a year because they are losing tax revenues from fuel sales... another clue for you.
Did I mention the fact that the NC legislature also passed a law, at the behest of the Automobile Dealers association, banning internet sales of cars (you had to have a physical dealership) effectively targeted at preventing TESLA from competing in their state. Tesla fought it but finally acquiesced by opening a service center.

The NC legislature also passed a law banning the term "Global Warming" in fear of its impact on the economic well being of the coastal area, thought by many to be highly vulnerable to rising sea levels. I'll bet you won't see that term in this study...

As Kermit says... its not easy being green... in NC anyway.
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Old 03-01-2014, 06:41 AM   #13
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We are back to Global Cooling now.
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Old 03-01-2014, 06:43 AM   #14
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folks: friendly mod-reminder that we have to try to keep the politics to a minumum, please.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Foster View Post
That's a lot of electricity. Most electricity is made by burning something.
What would you like me to burn, and where would you like me to burn it?
Has anyone thought this through?
Oh,,,,excuse me,,,,,,I forgot. Electricity comes from the receptacle in the wall.......
Its not so "either/or"; the idea is that converting fuel to energy to move a car by an internal combustion engine is horribly inefficient; it is the most convenient and practical, though.
A power plant can extract energy from fuel in the most efficient way possible; transporting the energy (comes out of a receptacle in the wall) is also very efficient, and applying that energy to the wheels in your car by electric motor is very efficient. The net result is a lot less of something "burned" to go the same distance. Electric cars advertise a "MPG equivalent," and its like 100-150. Not "infinity-miles for free".
So, yeah, I'd say they've thought it through.

so how does replacing a bunch of 30mpg cars with 150 mpg cars "not" reduce emissions? They don't say in this article. They just repeat "that it is so". And the links to external pages just say the same thing. "it is so".
One thing it does say is that the study didn't have anything to do with that often-cited critique that the materials used in electric vehicles are bad for the environment...so thats not it. Maybe everyone is going to go 5 times farther than they do now?
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