Diesel Longevity

[dznf0g]

Rodster, first I'm not attacking you nor am I knocking the 3.5L Ecoboost. It is a formidable competitor of mine.

Those Ike Gauntlet runs, while entertaining, and while they contain some (a few) nuggets of good points, by in large are the "Rush Limbaugh" of the capability tests.......entertaining, contain facts, but are not complete factual "News" reports.

First, Very little of our towing miles are up a steep, straight grade. Most of our mountain driving is 5 mph - 40mph, accelerating, decelerating and turning tight curves.

When talking USABLE torque and power, we have to look at the torque RANGE as well as peak. RANGE is where we live, whether it is pulling away from a stop or climbing a mountain. (Unless you're doing the Pike's Peak run!)

Let's compare:

First, neither engine is a "screamer" as we might define it in the past....

3.5 Ecoboost

max. 365HP @5000 rpm
max. 420 Lb/ft @ 2500 rpm

L86 6.2L V8

max. 420HP @ 5600 rpm
max. 460 Lb/ft @ 4100 rpm

But now let's look at a comparison through the range:

35.L ........... 6.2L

@2000 rpm
380 lb/ft 90% ............ 380 lb/ft 82%

@2500 rpm
420 lb/ft 100% ........... 400 lb/ft 87%

@3000 rpm
415 lb/ft 99% ............ 414 lb ft 90%

@4000 rpm
400 lb/ft 95% ........... 455 lb/ft 99%

Although I could not find a Ford SAE J1349 torque and HP chart online, which I find very curious), I did find at Pickuptrucks.com individual charts which I had to compare. Usable max. power is typically accepted to be the point where the torque curve and the HP curve cross.....generally.

3.5 Ecoboost

303 HP and 310 lb/ft @ 5200 rpm

6.2 L L86

390 hp and 440 lb/ft @ 4700rpm

Now, study where the power CURVES sit relative to the RPMs we normally see on mountain roads...or flat for that matter, and ask yourself....which is better under what circumstance? (hint....there are advantages to both powerplants in a particular situation). Neither is wrong...or better...just well executed differing theories and designs.

Now you just have to figure out which rear end takes best advantage of each.

[dznf0g]

UGH, I can't make the columns line up!!!!

[KJRitchie]

Originally Posted by dkottum

Thanks Top. The local Ram dealership is part of a larger Larry Miller auto group that never mentioned Chrysler Maxcare, but pushed their own extended warranty program.

No dice. We'll look into Chrysler Maxcare.

Same with my dealer. They went through some 3rd party company to supply the warranties to all the makes they sell in their dealership group. Basically, they were doing that for their convenience not the customers.

Now I get a letter from Chrysler soliciting the factory warranty every couple of months, even stating a lifetime is available. Of course they don't have the costs on the letters, they want you to call them. I guess that means negotiating is in order. Lifetime warranty has gotta be expensive.

Kelvin

[Top]

Originally Posted by KJRitchie

Same with my dealer. They went through some 3rd party company to supply the warranties to all the makes they sell in their dealership group. Basically, they were doing that for their convenience not the customers.

Now I get a letter from Chrysler soliciting the factory warranty every couple of months, even stating a lifetime is available. Of course they don't have the costs on the letters, they want you to call them. I guess that means negotiating is in order. Lifetime warranty has gotta be expensive.

Kelvin

Kelvin,
I'm shopping from chryslerwarrantydirect.com.
Diane Roach
Chrysler Warranty Direct
1-888-352-6103
Ask for Rodney.
I was quoted about $2,100 for a 8yr/120,000mi Chrysler Max Care warranty.
Lifetime warranty is not available for diesel powered vehicles.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by rodsterinfl

The Ford Eco engines are amazingly powerful at low torque and their power peak is at 2500 RPM

I think you meant their torque peak is at 2500 rpm. The power peak is at 5000 rpm. You need power for climbing hills. Lots of enthusiasts claim you only need torque (and not hp), but that is only if you don't want to have to shift gears.

Originally Posted by rodsterinfl

BTW, a properly designed diesel/cooling system should be able to idle and not overheat. That is another issue with some modern systems.

The issue mentioned above with idling isn't with overheating, it is with incomplete combustion. It is true of all engines, but even more so for diesels, that they like to run hard and work. Short trips and idling are not great for long life.

Jeff

[Top]

LOL! I thought this thread was about diesel longevity

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by Top

LOL! I thought this thread was about diesel longevity

You've been around long enough to know better!

[Range Mark]

TOP,

Not completely accurate, there are dealerships offering "Life Time Warranty", I have one on my Ram CTD.

[dkottum]

Originally Posted by Top

Kelvin,
I'm shopping from chryslerwarrantydirect.com.
Diane Roach
Chrysler Warranty Direct
1-888-352-6103
Ask for Rodney.
I was quoted about $2,100 for a 8yr/120,000mi Chrysler Max Care warranty.
Lifetime warranty is not available for diesel powered vehicles.

We're going to look at the Chrysler extended warranty as well. Our last Ram 1500 performed flawlessly for 50K miles so we did not hesitate to buy a new one.

Love the fuel economy of the Ecodiesel and when going through negotiations between this and the gas Hemi, the final prices were very close. The incentives are there, great trade-in value, and the diesel has 40K longer power train warranty than the Hemi.

We were disappointed to hear the dealership spiel for the dealership's extended warranty and nothing mentioned about Chrysler's. We passed on the dealership warranty.

[Jack Moore]

Yeah, we love Fords. So does Consumer Reports. the F150 just received their best half ton award again. Look at that 6.2. But price them all. It's a value decision. You may want to review the consumer reports article.

[tjdonahoe]

What is this of diesels over heating? They cool off when idling , only one time did I get one warmed up good, when a thermostat stuck closed, on a 7.3, you do not idle any of the newer truck diesel engines, shut them off, no big deal, most warrentys aren't worth the paper they are written on, no problem..

[KJRitchie]

Originally Posted by Top

LOL! I thought this thread was about diesel longevity

OK, back on track. Purchased my Ram 2500 CTD last August, have 2000 miles on it and it is still running great. Oil looks black, guess that's normal for diesel. I've owned it for 6 months, maybe I should get the oil changed.

I would be interesting for owners of modern diesels using DEF technologies could report.

Kelvin

[Can of beans]

I worked with C-mm-ns on a two different projects with DEF tanks, none on the automotive side, and based on that I would buy a gas engine.
If you get a bit of road dust in the DEF tank you have a high chance of destroying your DEF system. Iif you idle your truck too long, or don't drive it far enough or hard enough very often, you have a high chance of destroying your catalytic converter. If you disable part of your DEF system, you vehicle will go into a limp mode and report itself to the EPA if not repaired quickly.
The systems we were working on were for larger engines, not automotive, but I can say definitely that the engineers on those systems did not know anything about reality. Sorry about being so negative. on the other hand my dad has a 2008 ford f-350 diesel, no hard driving, mostly long trips. He's had to put in a new intercooler and blend doors inside. other than that it's been a good truck for him. Of course he gets 10-11 mpg towing his snowmobile trailer, and pays more for fuel.

[mojo]

Just a side note on extended warranties...the third party companies do not make a stink about having work done at independent shops instead of the dealer. This could be important if you have a lame dealer or find yourself away from home and need work. My independent shop loves my warranty company.

[FLMarine]

I have a 2005 Dodge 2500 Quad Cab Diesel 4x4, and I will turn 200,000 miles in two days. So far it has been extremely reliable. I avg 12-13 towing my Airstream 27FB at 68mph and 18-19 at 70 mph unloaded.

Here is a list of what I have replaced or repaired. Minus regular wear and tear items like water pumps, brakes, etc the only things that have broke on me while driving was two air conditioning compressors at 38k and 76k miles. Turns out there was a bad batch of the compressors and after I went aftermarket I haven't had any issues since. I had to recently replace the fuel boost pump and one rear brake caliper that stuck.

I didn't have to at the time but at 170k miles I had the transmission rebuilt and an upgraded torque converter put in. I wish I would have done it right after I bought it. Made a nice difference in the feel of driving it and putting power to the ground.

I plan to drive it to at least 250-275k before getting another truck.

My older brother had a 2004 dodge diesel he put about 200k on and currently has a 2008 chassis cab Dodge diesel and has 160k on it. All have been great trucks.

[rodsterinfl]

LOL! I thought this thread was about diesel longevity

It is; however when BTB wrote the original post, there was more than one concern along with diesel longevity including deciding on what TV to get with a diesel being a most likely choice but then...his second post #48, was moving away from diesel based on the reading and commenting. Reading through the post I threw in an alternative #54, still within the context of diesel sub-systems and warranted concerns but added the benefit of modern gassers specifically the Ecoboost as being diesel-like in its low end torque.

@dznf0g, as far as the power and torque curve of an engine go, they only tell part of the story- primarily the best RPM to run the engine. The GEARING is critical and what I did was use an online spreadsheet that calculates RPM at travel speed OR GIVEN ENGINE RPM considerate of wheel size, final drive, , etc. The calculation then shows the available torque at RPM for a particular truck per se at 70 mph. From that it is simple to see what the percentage of torque is available at a given speed without shifting.

My point was that at 70 mph and at the final gear, a 5.3 or 6.2 L GM is running at around 42% of peak torque. A shift is inevitable as was shown in the gauntlet and why they were roaring up the road in the video. Yes, the guys were entertaining but the camera showed the tach at 5000 RPM and holding. Meanwhile the Ford is geared for 75% of its torque at 70 mph. When they tested even the smaller eco 2,7 the driver was pulling the trailer and used to hearing the roar. He kept flooring the Ford unnecessarily and his partner told him that he was exceeding the speed limit. When he finally was cruising. It was pulling the same hill at 3500 rpm which baffled the driver. This mind you in the 2.7L not the 3.5 with even more power.It is all about available torque at a given RPM. The point is the benefit of a diesel has always been the low RPM torque for towing. Now there is a gasser that provides that benefit too. I firmly believe that torque is KING in towing and how a truck is geared is important too.

[tjdonahoe]

That all might be true at sea level and level country, here in Montana it is up hill both ways, more diesel power than gas pulling trailers, you also do not see any big gas engines in trucks anymore either, there is a reason for that...

[BTB]

Again, I appreciate all the comments and input.

The bottom line from my POV is that I am not a diesel expert, having never owned one. And while someone more informed than I might feel comfortable searching through auto-trader for months looking for just the right older Ford/GMC/Dodge truck with just the right diesel, I don't feel qualified to do that.

And I also drew similar conclusions to what's in Post #54 - the Ecoboosts have a power curve closer to a diesel than any "regular" gas powered truck - and I am way more familiar with the technology on the gas engines.

So the discussion has been very helpful, to help me decide that for me, despite the initial lure of a brand new diesel super-truck and despite all the glowing reports from people who have bought one and relish sailing up mountains and passing everyone, for me the looming downside (unless I can find a cherry example of just the right make/year/model etc etc) of grief and woe once I am out of warranty (or even when IN warranty - but at least the grief and woe is "only" time and aggravation and not $$$) is more than enough to tip the balance away from such a wonder-wagon.

I guess the upside is that this eco-boost approach has come along at the right time! With the appropriate towing and payload package - and axle ratio! - I believe I can find something that will work for me - I plan to go and educate my local dealer on all this, maybe even today.

Thanks again.

Bill

[rodsterinfl]

I absolutely believe in diesels when matched to need. I would be disowned by my father otherwise. 🙊

I hope to get to Montana in the future!

[GCinSC2]

When I bought my 2005 Dodge Cummins I had absolutely no need or justification for it. I was hooked and just had to have it. 11th year, 180,000 miles later it's doing the job with no complaints.

An industrial diesel with a manual trans in a strong chassis.

Spark plug free since '05 and daily commuting with a '00 VW Beetle TDI 5 speed over 208,000 on it.