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Old 05-31-2015, 02:44 PM   #29
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All of this discussion about tongue weight means nothing. The tongue weight of the trailer does not change with or without a hitch, any hitch. The fat lady is the fat lady whether she is sitting on a rock or air pillow

What you are attempting to discussing is the effective weight transferred to the TV and trailer as a result of a WD hitch.

If you were able to weight the actual weight exerted on the ball via the trailer when hitch you would see it goes up significantly because of the downward force of the WD hitch on the frame of the trailer. But you can't and really don't need to.

For those using excessively heavy WD hitches you would want to cross the scales 3 times. Once with the truck, once with the hitches not loaded and once with the hitch loaded. Once the hitch is set you are actually removing weight from the rear axle of the TV. But in no way changing the tongue weight.

Generally the none heavy hitter hitches don't weight enough to be considered as they fall within the error factor of the scales.
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Old 05-31-2015, 04:07 PM   #30
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HowiE, you may be right in many circumstances, but making that statement could be dangerous for someone else. Say for example, someone has a 16' Bambi weighing in at 4000#s and they shoot for a tongue weight of 400#s WITH an extra 122#s of HAHA on the front. In that case, their actual TW would be 288#s on a 4000# trailer. Not enough...and handling problems could occur.

In my case, you're probably right, but it is nice to know that when I weigh in at 1150# TW, that I'm really not over that AS max but by 20 - 30 pounds or so. I know where you are coming from...I just wouldn't not consider odd TV/trailer combinations and have someone get themselves in trouble.
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Old 05-31-2015, 05:16 PM   #31
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Not sure which statement you are referring to but just in case it is this one let me say again. There is no way to change the tongue weight of a trailer with a WD hitch. The things that govern tongue weight are, manufactures physical design of the trailer and how one loads the trailer. The manufacture makes some assumptions in how the owners actions will effect tongue weight in the placement of tanks and storage options. The assumptions being that the owner won't do something stupid like moving things around.

Trailers are originally designed with approximately 10 to 12 % of the trailer weight supported by the ball. This is the sweet spot for overall control should the trailer just be towed without additional considerations. This approach works well for most utility trailers. However RV, having a larger side profile, are subject to crosswinds and passing trucks, and thus the invention of the sway control aspects of many hitches. The WD aspects of hitches was historically necessitated as trailers got larger and while TV remained softly sprung family cars.

The consideration have changes as trucks have become the dominate TV of choice. Now sway control is more important than WD. The public just has not caught up the the needs and thus spends far too much time rethinking WD and often completely overlook sway control. How many RV trailers have you seen going down the interstate without any sway control consideration? You can tell them, wiggling down the road, from a 1/2 mile away as you overtake them.

As for a HaHa hitch on a Bambi that is as close to overkill as one can get. It may be nice to have the biggest gun at a gun fight, but unless you are towing with a VW Bug I question the need.
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Old 05-31-2015, 05:19 PM   #32
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I once incorrectly used the term "tongue weight" and was immediately corrected. I think everyone understands that we know there is no magic happening where tongue weight is reduced but we should instead refer to the activity as weight distribution where the weight is taken off the hitch and transferred to the TV front axle and TT axles.
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Old 05-31-2015, 05:27 PM   #33
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HowieE - not sure how you can argue that sway control is more important than WD and then disparage use of a HaHa on a Bambi. To me, sway is absolutely the most important consideration and why I really wanted the original PullRite. Not sure it's a bad idea to max out on something important to you...
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Old 05-31-2015, 05:40 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by NWRVR View Post
I once incorrectly used the term "tongue weight" and was immediately corrected. I think everyone understands that we know there is no magic happening where tongue weight is reduced but we should instead refer to the activity as weight distribution where the weight is taken off the hitch and transferred to the TV front axle and TT axles.
Weight is not removed from the hitch via a WD system. It is actually increased and quite significantly. One would have to view a Maxwell Diagram of the forces involved to see this. In order to transfer weight one has to create an equal and opposite force applied somewhere else to get that result. Newton made that point several years ago.
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Old 05-31-2015, 06:01 PM   #35
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I think there is a general misunderstanding of "weight" and "mass". You can change TW in a variety of ways. You can't change mass. Until one understands the difference, they will never understand the the proper methodology of weight distribution, whether distribution is by manually moving mass or by "cheating" by applying spring forces to move "weight". Weight = the effect of gravity upon mass.
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Old 05-31-2015, 06:06 PM   #36
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Obviously I am new to this and ignorant of the engineering concept. In reading the various manuals for the AS and WD system I assumed that weight is distributed off the hitch. There is that word assume again.
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Old 05-31-2015, 06:24 PM   #37
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Weight is removed from the rear axle of the TV and distributed to the front axle of the TV and the trailer axle(s) through the use of a lever under tension.
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Old 05-31-2015, 06:25 PM   #38
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You are a victim of an urban myth. The historical marketing efforts of the makers of WD systems inferred that they REDUCE tongue weight. But then again how many times have we been feed such stuff. It is much easier to come up with a simple statement, to feed the public, than to explain Newton's laws of reaction or draw a Maxwell diagram of forces within a beam.

A WD system does not reduce weight, before and after scale tickets prove that point. and clearly it does no reduce the mass since there has been no mention of removing anything from the TV or trailer.

What a WD system may appear to do in the absence of extensive mechanical explanations is Cheating. It is not. It is just the application of leverage to produce a mechanical advantage.
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Old 05-31-2015, 06:46 PM   #39
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WD does not remove weight nor remove mass. It relocates weight within the entire system. Weight tickets do prove that as well.

I guess I am not understanding which point your are addressing??????

Maybe we are addressing two different post from the above??????

I think you have to understand that, I think, the RV industry uses an expression of TW that has little bearing on math or science. They do have something to sell, which is rather complex, to a public which, by in large, "can't handle the truth"...or detail as it were.
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Old 05-31-2015, 07:17 PM   #40
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Understood. Don't believe everything you read. So the TV rates the hitch for maximum weight on the rear axle not the maximum weight on the hitch.
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Old 05-31-2015, 07:43 PM   #41
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Understood. Don't believe everything you read. So the TV rates the hitch for maximum weight on the rear axle not the maximum weight on the hitch.

Well, close...the TV mfr rates the receiver (hitch in your post????) for the maximum the receiver can handle. They also rate the rear axle for the maximum it can handle. That's why one needs a handle on how weights and their locations affect individual components and how they affect the total system.

For example, you could conceivably be right at max TW and receiver weight, but have so much weight in the back of the vehicle, that the excessive WD needed to accommodate the relocation of the rear axle weight puts excessive twist on the receiver.

"but gosh, I ran over the scales loaded, with WD applied, and wasn't over on any of my axle ratings...why did my receiver pop a weld?"
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Old 05-31-2015, 08:08 PM   #42
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Well, close...the TV mfr rates the receiver (hitch in your post????) for the maximum the receiver can handle. They also rate the rear axle for the maximum it can handle. That's why one needs a handle on how weights and their locations affect individual components and how they affect the total system.

For example, you could conceivably be right at max TW and receiver weight, but have so much weight in the back of the vehicle, that the excessive WD needed to accommodate the relocation of the rear axle weight puts excessive twist on the receiver.

"but gosh, I ran over the scales loaded, with WD applied, and wasn't over on any of my axle ratings...why did my receiver pop a weld?"
Going by what my TV dealer service dept told me when I gave him a 833 lbs TW with a factory hitch rated at 750 lbs but TV max hitch wt of 550 lbs. Two techs said no problem with WD. No welds popped so far.
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