Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 09-23-2012, 04:27 PM   #85
Rivet Master
 
dznf0g's Avatar

 
2007 30' Classic
Oswego , Illinois
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,402
Images: 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill M. View Post
Most of my life has occured without documented instructions.

Really? You must not have grown up in post-socialist America.
__________________

__________________
-Rich-

"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." - Red Green
dznf0g is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 10:35 AM   #86
Rivet Master
 
MrUKToad's Avatar

 
2011 28' International
Chatham , Ontario
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,372
Images: 17
Blog Entries: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeKid View Post
I see a lot of statements in your note about tow ratings that come across as assertions as opposed to facts. For example, how do you know the ratings are developed mainly by marketing departments? How do you know they cannot be enforced? How do you know that tow ratings are not based on any "... measurable or proven manner"?

I'm looking for factual information that supports your assertions.


Ah well, Orangekid, there's the rub; there is no documentary evidence that either proves or disproves my assertions.

The Truck Trend article does mention and quote named individuals in the auto industry and attributed quotes are pretty hard to argue against, so that is (in my opinion), fairly sure evidence in favor of my view. Also, the new SAE system for tow ratings has been implemented exactly because there was no definable method used in the past; it is an attempt to make the ratings mean something.

One thing we can be sure of is that there is a complete lack of technical data published by auto manufacturers about how they actually defined their tow ratings - make of that what you will.

Enforcement is another area where there is a lack of documentation. In my own research, I've not been able to find any reference to the enforcement of manufacturers' tow ratings in State or Provincial Towing Regulations. Sure, I'm no lawyer and my research may have been limited, but it seems to me that if the regulations don't document the issue then it cannot be enforced. The issue of why the law doesn't use manufacturers' tow ratings is another debate, but it will be linked to the lack of technical data from the manufacturers.

No one is saying that it's foolish to stick entirely within the specifications laid down by the tow vehicle manufacturer; if you're happier doing that then all is well. I certainly couldn't say for sure that vehicle A would happily and safely tow trailer B, but my point is that neither can the manufacturer because their ratings are not derived through any definable engineering methodology. This is routinely proved by thousands of customers who tow safely and legally outside the manufacturers' specifications.

As an aside, it's interesting to note that top end minivans, regardless of their brand, have had a tow rating of 3,500lb set ever since they were introduced into the US over 30 years ago. The original models bore little relation to today's offerings in terms of horsepower, torque, brakes, wheelbase, transmissions and weight and yet they are still set at that pitifully low tow rating. Speculate all you like on why the tow rating has never changed but I'm certain that it has very little to do with actual capability and everything to do with marketing.
__________________

__________________
Steve; also known as Mr UK Toad

"You can't tow that with that!"

http://toadsoftowedhaul.com
MrUKToad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2012, 02:05 AM   #87
OrangeKid
 
2013 23' Flying Cloud
Portland , Oregon
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 166
MrUKToad you have written an excellent summary of the issues wrt towing and I don't have many quibbles about what you state. It reminds me of the state of automobile tires and brakes back in the 60s when many autos had undersized tires and many brakes were inadequate for the weight of the vehicle. Today a brakes are adequate and adequate tires are specified for each vehicle. The vehicle placard inside the door jamb also lists the maximum load the vehicle is rated to carry.

I did recently test drive a 2013 Toyota Land Cruiser and noted that the ratings for towing were 8500 for a trailer with a 850 pound tongue weight. The specs clearly stated that the ratings were based on SAE J2807. So, in my mind, that vehicle is suitable to tow my 23 Airstream. When other manufacturers adopt that standard then we will better be able to compare towing abilities among different brands of TV.

WRT the use of a weight distributing hitch I think the European manufacturers need to redesign (if necessary) their vehicles to formally allow the use of such hitches. Several European brands advertise their towing ability. Recently Mercedes Benz sent me an email pointing out the 7500 lb. tow limit of the GL350, even though I did not even mention I was thinking of using it to tow a trailer. After I asked about the use of a WD hitch MB replied that one was not necessary. I'll be test driving both the ML and GL BlueTec versions next week.

Finally I saw a 2012 20' Flying cloud today and both my wife and I really liked the layout of the interior. It makes incredibly efficient use of interior space. So now I am starting to think I can downsize my Airstream and maybe make it work with my favorite European diesel, the BMW X5, to my satisfaction. I have been leery of single axle vs two axle trailers, and I have to research it some more.
__________________
OrangeKid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2012, 09:36 PM   #88
Rivet Master
 
mefly2's Avatar
 
2015 25' FB Eddie Bauer
Western , ** Big Sky Country ** Montana
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,283
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeKid View Post
The actual measured tongue weight of our Airstream is between 780-880 lbs. I would never tow without a WD hitch.
Did you take the dealer up on the offer to deliver the TV to your trailer and check it out? Ask if they might also let you "test pull" with the BMW. Our BMW lightweight was "weigh" too "light" to tow even our FC20 without a WD hitch ... just our opinion, of course. A lot of $$ tied up in the BMW and AS ... too much to risk damage for us. (note that we rarely pull with our jeep either) YMMV
__________________
mefly2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2012, 11:22 PM   #89
OrangeKid
 
2013 23' Flying Cloud
Portland , Oregon
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by mefly2 View Post
Did you take the dealer up on the offer to deliver the TV to your trailer and check it out? Ask if they might also let you "test pull" with the BMW. Our BMW lightweight was "weigh" too "light" to tow even our FC20 without a WD hitch ... just our opinion, of course. A lot of $$ tied up in the BMW and AS ... too much to risk damage for us. (note that we rarely pull with our jeep either) YMMV
No I did not. It was obvious to me that towing a trailer with a 780-880 pound tongue weight without a WD hitch was out of the question with the X5 considering it has a tongue weight rating of 600 pounds. I was not going to waste my time or the BMW dealer's time when I had realized that the X5 was not going to work with my 23' Safari.

I think of the TV, Airstream, propane, batteries, liquids plus all the contents of your trailer and vehicle as one system that should be optimized for safety, drivability and usability. The current state of standards in the industry makes it very difficult for the average consumer to do so.
__________________
OrangeKid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2012, 08:18 AM   #90
Rivet Master
 
mefly2's Avatar
 
2015 25' FB Eddie Bauer
Western , ** Big Sky Country ** Montana
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,283
Your observations on the FC20 are shared by us. We downsized to the 20 and have not looked back! You will get even more enthusiasm about the layout from my wife ... we added a microwave and toaster oven for her and she still has counter top to spare. Fresh muffins, choc chip cookies, or rolls are the order of the day - usually the first priority when we get "set up". She preps the dough in advance and keeps our campground neighbors happy. As well, there are advantages to the single axle units. Go Beavers .... we have several friends wo still call Portland home - enjoy.
__________________
mefly2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 03:42 PM   #91
OrangeKid
 
2013 23' Flying Cloud
Portland , Oregon
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by mefly2 View Post
Your observations on the FC20 are shared by us. We downsized to the 20 and have not looked back! You will get even more enthusiasm about the layout from my wife ... we added a microwave and toaster oven for her and she still has counter top to spare. Fresh muffins, choc chip cookies, or rolls are the order of the day - usually the first priority when we get "set up". She preps the dough in advance and keeps our campground neighbors happy. As well, there are advantages to the single axle units. Go Beavers .... we have several friends wo still call Portland home - enjoy.
Sounds great, please see my private message.
__________________
OrangeKid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2012, 11:49 PM   #92
4 Rivet Member
 
DryFly's Avatar
 
1972 Argosy 20
Snoqualmie , Washington
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 411
I've been waiting for a 1/2 ton diesel vehicle for years, and there's always a rumor that one's coming "next year". Don't hold your breath. I think the trailer you're looking to tow is probably too big for an X5, it probably weighs as much as the X5.
__________________
DryFly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2012, 09:47 PM   #93
4 Rivet Member
 
withidl's Avatar
 
2002 31' Classic
Houston , Texas
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 440
Images: 1
Not Really A Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by DryFly View Post
I've been waiting for a 1/2 ton diesel vehicle for years, and there's always a rumor that one's coming "next year". Don't hold your breath. I think the trailer you're looking to tow is probably too big for an X5, it probably weighs as much as the X5.
I beg to differ; see my avatar which shows a 4,900+ pound curb weight 2001 X5 hitched to an 8,300 pound GVWR 31 foot 2002 ASCL; been pulling it for over 35,000 miles, no problem.
__________________
withidl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2012, 12:10 AM   #94
4 Rivet Member
 
DryFly's Avatar
 
1972 Argosy 20
Snoqualmie , Washington
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by withidl View Post
I beg to differ; see my avatar which shows a 4,900+ pound curb weight 2001 X5 hitched to an 8,300 pound GVWR 31 foot 2002 ASCL; been pulling it for over 35,000 miles, no problem.
Well there you are, shows how much I know.
__________________
DryFly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2012, 09:00 AM   #95
Rivet Master
 
mefly2's Avatar
 
2015 25' FB Eddie Bauer
Western , ** Big Sky Country ** Montana
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,283
Quote:
Originally Posted by DryFly View Post
Well there you are, shows how much I know.
One has to ponder just how effective the brakes are after repeated use - when the load more than doubles (4900 changes to 4900 PLUS 8300) and the design capacity is possibly exceeded - regardless of manufacturer's tow rating ... reminds me of the tail wagging the dog. In our case, we didn't want to risk damage to our BMW or Jeep and settled on the addition of a Ram PU. Didn't the older advertisements show an AS being pulled by a bicyle -clearly it can be done ... I always wondered just how they got the AS/bike stopped (with the limited brakes) without a long run down... just sayin'. "Proof" by example, huh? YMMV
__________________
mefly2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2012, 05:55 PM   #96
4 Rivet Member
 
withidl's Avatar
 
2002 31' Classic
Houston , Texas
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 440
Images: 1
X5 Brakes FAR EXCEED Ram PU

Quote:
Originally Posted by mefly2 View Post
One has to ponder just how effective the brakes are after repeated use - when the load more than doubles (4900 changes to 4900 PLUS 8300) and the design capacity is possibly exceeded - regardless of manufacturer's tow rating ... reminds me of the tail wagging the dog. In our case, we didn't want to risk damage to our BMW or Jeep and settled on the addition of a Ram PU. Didn't the older advertisements show an AS being pulled by a bicyle -clearly it can be done ... I always wondered just how they got the AS/bike stopped (with the limited brakes) without a long run down... just sayin'. "Proof" by example, huh? YMMV
The X5 braking capability FAR EXCEEDS that of ANY Ram PU. The X5 was designed to "run the twisties" and thus along with brakes that can take the punishment the engine is set so low that the front drive shaft actually passes through the oil pan. Additionally, the battery is located at the lowest postion in the rear of the X5 and the tires are 255 mm wide in front and 285 mm in the rear. If I should loose the Airstream brakes I would much rather be towing with my X5 than ANY pickup.
__________________
withidl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2012, 06:49 PM   #97
Vintage Kin
 
slowmover's Avatar
 
Fort Worth , Texas
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,582
Images: 1
Trailer brakes stop the trailer. And any upscale TT like an A/S deserves best brakes. State of the art is currently electric over hydraulic disc with antilock. That set of brakes will stop the whole rig (no braking from TV) faster than you'd imagine. Electric drums simply blow out . . can't do it in any acceptable fashion.

The thinking that one needs a "big" (clumsy) TV to pull a fair sized trailer is backwards. Wasn't done in the 1960's any more than today among those who understand how these things work.

For a fulltimer wanting to carry 2,622-lbs of cargo, a truck is what they are stuck with. For the vacationer, the TV that best suits solo duty and can also tow the TT is the best starting point.

As this is an A/S, questions about weight are not so important, as with any TT it is the aerodynamic resistance which is the first consideration. And as this TT type constitutes a small fraction of TT's (or aero: of any type of trailer), this is not entered into vehicle "towing ratings".

Get the right brakes, get the best hitch, and then spec the TV that (as above) is all around best.

.
__________________
1990 35' Silver Streak Sterling; 9k GVWR.
2004 DODGE Cummins 305/555; 6-manual; 9k GVWR.
Hensley Arrow. 9-cpm solo, 15-cpm towing
Sold: Silver Streak Model 3411
slowmover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2012, 01:13 AM   #98
Rivet Master
 
mefly2's Avatar
 
2015 25' FB Eddie Bauer
Western , ** Big Sky Country ** Montana
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,283
Quote:
Originally Posted by withidl View Post
The X5 braking capability FAR EXCEEDS that of ANY Ram PU. The X5 was designed to "run the twisties" and thus along with brakes that can take the punishment the engine is set so low that the front drive shaft actually passes through the oil pan. Additionally, the battery is located at the lowest postion in the rear of the X5 and the tires are 255 mm wide in front and 285 mm in the rear. If I should loose the Airstream brakes I would much rather be towing with my X5 than ANY pickup.
Wow. I like red! Our beamer was green, however and the closest repair facility is over 200 miles away ... we'll stay with the Ram for towing ... however stupid that may appear to some ...my experience and opinion is still mine. And just because the battery in our 300 series convert is in the back of the trunk has nothing to do with braking potential - handling twisties, yes; braking ability / fade resistance, NO. So I guess that I will keep an eye open for fleets of x5s as potential commercial TVs... should also be cheaper to operate than the darned old trucks anyway. E=m*v^2 .... hmmmm, now if we can just change that darned formula for energy ... I SAID, YMMV.
__________________

__________________
mefly2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:30 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.