Bike rack for A/S bumper?

[JamuJoe]

I believe that the difference is in reference to "frame". Airstream refers to the "frame between skins" as being part of the integral structure. No argument there - it makes for a strong sandwich shell. The "undercarriage frame" is obviously a support for the superstructure.

[JamuJoe]

Sorry, my terminology was incorrect. That which I called the "undercarriage frame" Airstream calls the "chassis". So yes, Andy, the shell supports the frame which supports the shell - it's a sandwich. The chassis carries the shell. I finally came across the factory tour site http://www.airstream.com/company/fac...ur-part-1.html which provides a nice pictorial of the assembly.

[bike_addict]

Originally Posted by mojo

Bike Rack for Airstreams
For those of you looking for a custom fit bike rack for an Airstream, this is it. It mounts to the front A frame of the trailer and mounts the bikes over the propane tanks. I have used it on several trips and it is very solid and secure.
.......
There website is WELCOME to Top Pop Rails Website !

Mojo, where did you get the rack from? The website doesn't look like you can order it from there. How much was it?

As you can guess from my handle I've got bikes with me just about everywhere I go. One of the main reasons for the Airstream is a basecamp for my bike. I currently have fork mounts in the bed of my truck but with everything we'll be hauling that'll be tough. I really like the looks of that rack.

[random 17]

Originally Posted by JamuJoe

Well, it's a rainy day in Durango, so I'll add my 2 cents worth.

Monocoque (single shell) is a construction technique that supports structural load by using an object's exterior, as opposed to using an internal frame. A kayak is an example of monocoque construction. Airstream currently builds a double shell with framing between skins. They call it semi-monocoque, as it doesn’t wrap completely around (under) the unit like an airplane, although it is actually a double hull on a deck. The shell does not support the undercarriage frame, it supports itself and accessory items (air conditioner, cabinets etc.) The shell is attached to and carried by the undercarriage frame. Excessive flexing of the frame could cause problems with the relatively inflexible shell. How strong & rigid is the undercarriage frame? My 2011 is obviously strong enough for the rear sliders to take a substantial force. So why doesn’t Airstream provide framing for a bike carrier, or prescribe attachment points for a bike carrier similar to their prescribed jacking points? I guess it’s the same reason that they don’t offer many buyer options, or respond to buyer requests for substitutions such as larger batteries, larger wheels & tires etc. Apparently they can’t be bothered.

My A/S dealer was quite confident in offering to custom install a receiver hitch. For my type of bike usage, however, a tow vehicle roof rack carrier is a better solution.

I would agree with this. My Airstream dealer was also confident installing a 2 inch receiver hitch to the rear of my trailer, welded to the frame. I now have a Thule hitch bike rack which I use without problem. The bikes are easy to get on and off. Obviously this type of mount opens up many more options with regard to aftermarket racks. Will I be sorry, maybe---but I doubt it. Now if I put a storage rack on that hitch with a generator, motorcycle, etc. on it, that would probably be a different story.

I would also agree that the reason Airstream doesn't have a formal position regarding this topic is simple----liability in the good old USA. They gain nothing by coming out with a formal position except for potential headaches. They are in the business of making money by selling as many trailers as possible. Until the consumer makes a statement that they will not consider their product because of a lack of this type of integrated feature, they could care less.

BTW, this also applies to many similar design deficiencies inherent in the Airstream---lack of integrated generator, small fresh water tank, too large a black water tank in relation to grey water...... the list goes on.

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by Friday

I'd like to agree with Andy more... as he obviously has a lot of experience in the industry... but I find the random "Because the Caravaner study said..." or "Because the Airstream engineers said..." to be a bit hollow when the source isn't cited.

The whole 'why do Airstreams crash' is a good example... Andy cites 'air bags' as a huge factor... that so many of the crashes were using air bags... OK, but how many tow vehicles all-together are using air bags safely? If 50% of the travelling trailers are running bags on the tow vehicle... I'd expect them to be found on 50% of the trailers that wreck. 1/2 the statistic doesn't prove anything.

My A/S has a large "jack here" sticker under the rear corner... right beside my wheelie-wheel... who engineered THAT? Or is that an after-market sticker?

Puzzled...

The "air bags" improperly inflated, were a large cause of loss of control accidents.

It's also impossible to say "how accident prone" a given hitch rigging, or lack thereof, may be, other than the odds tremendously increase, when not done properly, as deemed by industry standards.

It's impossible to stay, "how many" were improperly inflated. Some get away with it, some do not. Does it make it right? No.

Some people tow with just a "ball". Why? Because they have a truck. A truck cannot over ride simple physics, but incorrect analogy can.

But, tests did prove that excessive inflation, progressively defeated the purpose of the load equalizing hitch, since it transfered weight to the rear end of the tow vehicle and away from the front end.

Andy

[GerryH]

Hi,
I talked to the Regional Airstream Rep at the Dallas, Tx RV show.
He says Airstream has a Bike Rack that is now available for
sale. Says it looks like you would expect a Airstream Bike
rack to look. He was not specific on what models or year
Airstream that would be able to utilize the New Bike Rack.
This is a Airstream product and I think may attach to the rear
bumper but you would need to confirm that when ordering it.

Also, Asked him about attaching anything to a Airstream rear
bumper and he said Airstreams official answers is no. He then
said if you had a certain model of Airstream which has the bumper
welded to the frame it would not hurt the frame or chassis to
add a reciever if it was done right, & if you were resonable to how
much weight you were going to carry. He said Airstream just says
no about adding a hitch to the bumper because it can make the
trailer sway and if you put too much weight back there it can cause
problems. I told him mine has a rack, Rubbermaid tub, and about
60 lbs of weight in the tub and he said it would not hurt anyting
as long as I had no sway control problem. The Airstream dealer
who did mine is in Dallas, Tx and the Airstream rep said if he did the
work it would be top notch. The weight on mine is about 100 Lbs
total and I was told not to go over 200Lbs. The Airstream Rep said
it would not hurt the trailer or cause anytype of frame seperation.
Hope this helps someone.

[bike_addict]

Originally Posted by GerryH

Hi,
I talked to the Regional Airstream Rep at the Dallas, Tx RV show.
He says Airstream has a Bike Rack that is now available for
sale.

Any info on where to get it from? Any images online?

[JamuJoe]

Originally Posted by GerryH

Hi,
I talked to the Regional Airstream Rep at the Dallas, Tx RV show.
He says Airstream has a Bike Rack that is now available for
sale. Says it looks like you would expect a Airstream Bike
rack to look.

Here's the reply received today (9/26) from Airstream Customer Service regarding a new Airstream bike rack:
"Airstream is working with Fiama and should have something available in about 90 days. We don't currently have anything available, details later.

Thank you,
Airstream Customer Support Team

[dkottum]

Excellent. We traveled all over the country with a Fiamma rack on the back of our VW camper. They have a rail under the bike wheels and adjustable supports on top. Lightweight and sturdy, the bikes stay put.

And they are aluminum.

doug k

[Friday]

The Fiama seems very reasonably priced - at least for the applications they already support... Around $350 for a 2-4 bike carrier.

The design won't be a bumper hitch though... they design their racks to mount directly to the body/shell of camper vans... they have a rail system where you run 2 horizontal rails across an RV and then you add a rack.

The trick on the A/S would be to find enough support across the back to mount the rails on the flat section... unless they get into curved rails... and avoiding the window... They make a version that goes high enough to have the top support above the rear window.

Fiamma SpA - Home

Is their official site.

[Friday]

Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In

The "air bags" improperly inflated, were a large cause of loss of control accidents.

It's also impossible to say "how accident prone" a given hitch rigging, or lack thereof, may be, other than the odds tremendously increase, when not done properly, as deemed by industry standards.

It's impossible to stay, "how many" were improperly inflated. Some get away with it, some do not. Does it make it right? No.

Some people tow with just a "ball". Why? Because they have a truck. A truck cannot over ride simple physics, but incorrect analogy can.

But, tests did prove that excessive inflation, progressively defeated the purpose of the load equalizing hitch, since it transfered weight to the rear end of the tow vehicle and away from the front end.

Andy

I'm not disagreeing with the theory... but without some baseline statistics it's hard to link the cause and the effect. Your suggestion is 'improperly inflated airbags' are the cause. But, you haven't provided a baseline of accidents per mile (or however you want to measure it) for non-airbag equipped vehicles, 'properly' inflated air bags, and 'improperly' inflated bags.

You might see the stats and say "Well, there are a lot of big trailer wrecks, and the airbags were found to be too stiff". I investigate accidents... and before I came to that conclusion, I would want to back up and say "Of similar big trailer setups, what is the accident rate?" Because, it might be that once you reach a certain size bumper-pull, air bags are used at a high rate... so a high percentage of big trailers are going to be pulled by an air bag equipped vehicle. The next step would be to consider if the accident was caused by the air bags, or if a certain unavoidable action was complicated by air bags, or if the crash was going to happen regardless of the setup (not a loss of control situation).

Trailers don't wreck often, but of the few I've investigated, they have all been the result of the rear-end becoming unloaded... with the trailer pushing the back end out and the tow vehicle being jack-knifed... the result is usually a pile up in the ditch with one or both units on their side. From what I see of trailers, I'm amazed there aren't more wrecks...

Anyway... a typical scenario I've seen... vehicle is on a slight down grade, TV is coasting... TV enters corner... TV can't control speed OR radius of corner decreases (same effect)... TV initiates braking... trailer already has gained mass/momentum over the TV... trailer brakes are not able to give balance of control back to TV... back end of TV steps out... brakes are hammered (on TV)... full control of momentum is given to the trailer... rear traction on TV is zero... rig ends up in the ditch.

Often, the hitch is higher than the trailer ball, so any braking lead by the TV creates a lever unloading the back end... any type of braking creates a loss of control, and the greater the angle between the TV and trailer the more likely a wreck.

I haven't investigated an accident that was a loss of control initiated by swaying/oscillation - though I am sure they happen as well. In my area, we have 100's of miles of rolling, sweeping hills and corners (mountains) - so bad tow setups likely reveal themselves sooner in other ways before a sway issue can develop.

I am interested in how the new Ford anti-sway setup is working for people - as I see the real problem as managing the mass of the trailer - especially when it greatly exceeds the TV. A system like Ford that is linked into the stability control would be able to detect traction loss at any wheel, and link to the trailer brakes to manage the whole system as one unit... a very smart idea.

I am also interested in how newer suspension setups have affected sway issues... Older leaf-spring set ups had a huge amount of lateral flex... new setups have much more rigid frames and suspensions... Have accident rates gone up or down with the ever increasing capacity of TV's and the larger and larger trailers? I don't know - my sample size is much too small for me to make a guess...

[TouringDan]

Friday

Thanks for the professional insight into where most trailer/TV accidents happen and also how they happen. That is some great information and it all makes a lot of sense.

Dan

[HiHoAgRV]

Originally Posted by Friday

I'm not disagreeing with the theory...

Often, the hitch is higher than the trailer ball, so any braking lead by the TV creates a lever unloading the back end... any type of braking creates a loss of control, and the greater the angle between the TV and trailer the more likely a wreck. - my sample size is much too small for me to make a guess...

I agree with everything you said EXCEPT the ball height...lifting the rear of the Tow will only happen if the ball is ABOVE the center of gravity of the trailer and the trailer braking force.

Back on subject...if the bike carrier uses the shell and frame for support like CanAm and Howie have done...the King's new clothes are...um...never mind...

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by Friday

I'm not disagreeing with the theory... but without some baseline statistics it's hard to link the cause and the effect. Your suggestion is 'improperly inflated airbags' are the cause. But, you haven't provided a baseline of accidents per mile (or however you want to measure it) for non-airbag equipped vehicles, 'properly' inflated air bags, and 'improperly' inflated bags.

You might see the stats and say "Well, there are a lot of big trailer wrecks, and the airbags were found to be too stiff". I investigate accidents... and before I came to that conclusion, I would want to back up and say "Of similar big trailer setups, what is the accident rate?" Because, it might be that once you reach a certain size bumper-pull, air bags are used at a high rate... so a high percentage of big trailers are going to be pulled by an air bag equipped vehicle. The next step would be to consider if the accident was caused by the air bags, or if a certain unavoidable action was complicated by air bags, or if the crash was going to happen regardless of the setup (not a loss of control situation).

Trailers don't wreck often, but of the few I've investigated, they have all been the result of the rear-end becoming unloaded... with the trailer pushing the back end out and the tow vehicle being jack-knifed... the result is usually a pile up in the ditch with one or both units on their side. From what I see of trailers, I'm amazed there aren't more wrecks...

Anyway... a typical scenario I've seen... vehicle is on a slight down grade, TV is coasting... TV enters corner... TV can't control speed OR radius of corner decreases (same effect)... TV initiates braking... trailer already has gained mass/momentum over the TV... trailer brakes are not able to give balance of control back to TV... back end of TV steps out... brakes are hammered (on TV)... full control of momentum is given to the trailer... rear traction on TV is zero... rig ends up in the ditch.

Often, the hitch is higher than the trailer ball, so any braking lead by the TV creates a lever unloading the back end... any type of braking creates a loss of control, and the greater the angle between the TV and trailer the more likely a wreck.

I haven't investigated an accident that was a loss of control initiated by swaying/oscillation - though I am sure they happen as well. In my area, we have 100's of miles of rolling, sweeping hills and corners (mountains) - so bad tow setups likely reveal themselves sooner in other ways before a sway issue can develop.

I am interested in how the new Ford anti-sway setup is working for people - as I see the real problem as managing the mass of the trailer - especially when it greatly exceeds the TV. A system like Ford that is linked into the stability control would be able to detect traction loss at any wheel, and link to the trailer brakes to manage the whole system as one unit... a very smart idea.

I am also interested in how newer suspension setups have affected sway issues... Older leaf-spring set ups had a huge amount of lateral flex... new setups have much more rigid frames and suspensions... Have accident rates gone up or down with the ever increasing capacity of TV's and the larger and larger trailers? I don't know - my sample size is much too small for me to make a guess...

Stats are always challenged.

We didn't know, as an example, how many out of how many, or how many miles per. That is an impossible question to answer. We felt that ONE, was too many.

BUT, when you have 3 to 4 total losses in the USA EVERY WEEK, that has a huge tendency to get someones attention, as it did us.

All we or I can tell you is that all to many loss of control accidents COULD BE avoided, if folks listened and dealers really cared.

Send the customer down the road, with the cheapest rigging, is practiced by all to many people and dealers.

Strange, that those same people, think nothing of spending near $100,00.00 for a tow vehicle and trailer, but gripe like no tomorrw when it comes to costs for proper hitching. Sort of an old saying, always has, always will, be an issue, since all too many people fuss at facts, unless they are mobbed with statistics along with it.

I don't have exact stats, that are demanded, but I do have the absolute first hand eye sight and experience with over 1000 loss of control accidents, most of which were roll overs.

I really feel that all to many think It can't happen to me!!

Bah Humbug...........

There are many on this Forums, that have modified their rigging, typically from a suggestion that I have given, and amazingly, the vast majority were pleased.

Andy

[Friday]

Originally Posted by HiHoAgRV

I agree with everything you said EXCEPT the ball height...lifting the rear of the Tow will only happen if the ball is ABOVE the center of gravity of the trailer and the trailer braking force.

Back on subject...if the bike carrier uses the shell and frame for support like CanAm and Howie have done...the King's new clothes are...um...never mind...

Sorry - the image I was trying to describe is the trailer is not level - it is pointing up. If the trailer brakes allow, the braking of the TV will unload the rear... ie, the trailer is not able to manage it's own weight.

The CofG consideration would only be accurate if the trailer exactly providing the same mass-deceleration as the TV. Otherwise, you've got a lever set up which is going to pull up or push down on the TV.

When you add the dynamics of a slope and a turn (even a slight one), it seems to magnify this problem exponentially...

[Friday]

Originally Posted by TouringDan

Friday

Thanks for the professional insight into where most trailer/TV accidents happen and also how they happen. That is some great information and it all makes a lot of sense.

Dan

That's only what I have seen the most in my area, as the types highways in Northern BC don't lend themselves to much else. There might be lots of other great crashes before people get here that are caused by other factors... In the curves and hills, they seem to be related to the trailer pushing the TV around...

On a big interstate and such, I'd expect with the speeds and traffic flow, that you'd get a lot more wrecks with loss-of-control dealing with sudden deceleration for traffic, lane changes gone wrong, and unchecked sway/oscillation.

As far as 'most', by number - I think I've investigated a lot more collisions when people are manoeuvring in parking lots, gas stations, drive thru's (!)...

Given the large amount of RV traffic I see in the summer, especially in the Banff/Jasper corridor - I'm amazed there aren't more wrecks. I guess most people are taking it easy and enjoying the mountains.

[Friday]

Originally Posted by HiHoAgRV

Back on subject...if the bike carrier uses the shell and frame for support like CanAm and Howie have done...the King's new clothes are...um...never mind...

I was looking at the back of my International... it looks like either the above or below window mount would work... I'm thinking the best place to nail it on would be the vertical seems on each side of the back. Some of their racks are completely adjustable for width and height mounting points.

I'm not sure what special modifications they are needing to do for Airstream... they have a lot of RV mounting options already... Hopefully not like my Kelty tent they sold me for my Basecamp for $1600... because they could...

[mikeandnora]

It will be very interesting to see if the "engineers" come up with something inline with what it seems like we have all taken as a given.

The Weight of the rack and bikes must be almost 100 percent transferred to aluminum as far away from the bumper/frame to shell problem spot.

If they don't I bet andy and collin will just sit back with a smile and a cold one, looking forward to a few years from now when everyone under the sun has rear end separation.

[Wayne&Sam]

Now THIS would be a bike rack, if they made it so your bike fit inside the box.

[Friday]

I will be a guinea-pig for this rack. Someone tell me where I should bolt it on (06 International) and I'll let you know if it falls off.