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Old 02-05-2015, 10:30 PM   #15
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Now if anyone believes the Metro/Casita post, I have a bridge in New York for sale Andrew T are you interested ?
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Glen & Jane 1969 all electric Airstream 25' TradeWind
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Old 02-05-2015, 11:13 PM   #16
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I had a 3 cylinder metro and I towed a 500 lbs utility trailer with a fireplace cord of wood in it and it was a short trip maybe 2 miles and I remember riding the clutch just to get going on a flat road . And was a treat to stop with no trailer brakes from 30 mph . So I don't know how they towed a casita weighing 3200 lbs with more trailer area wind surface then my utility trailer to highway speeds,must of been fun!

Don
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Old 02-06-2015, 06:26 AM   #17
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Please be kind......


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Old 02-07-2015, 05:26 AM   #18
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Hope I wasn't offensive as that was not my intention ,sorry if it sounded that way! By the way Robert love that North american flag.

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Old 02-07-2015, 06:06 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Glenritas View Post
Now if anyone believes the Metro/Casita post, I have a bridge in New York for sale Andrew T are you interested ?
Geo Metro Engine Specifications | eHow
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Old 02-07-2015, 10:21 AM   #20
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Hope I wasn't offensive as that was not my intention ,sorry if it sounded that way! By the way Robert love that North american flag.

Don
Don,

No problem on this end.

I have a soft spot....I can see the GWN from my kitchen window......


We be pretty close....




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Old 02-07-2015, 12:00 PM   #21
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Nothing gets beaten to death here quite like mpg's. Everyone has an opinion which is great. In the end it's all about your comfort and satisfaction. I quit keeping track of gas mileage because in the end whether I got 10, 12 or 14mpg, it didn't matter. (And my wife couldn't remember to write it down&#128536 We're having the time of our lives... You can't put a price on that.


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Old 02-07-2015, 12:35 PM   #22
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I keep rough track of my fuel economy just to watch for major unexplained changes... If I drop from 10 mpg down to 8 mpg, I'll check my truck out to see what's up. Other than that, I'm towing 31 ft of AlumaTurd down the road. I'm not too worried about fuel economy. However, it wouldn't hurt my feelings any to all of a sudden get 30mpg out of the old F250. I'd paint it down the side of the camper, like that guy back in the seventies with the 75mpg Cadillac... Yeah.

-Red, suddenly considering fuel economy...
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Old 02-07-2015, 01:24 PM   #23
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We have a Chev Sonic that gets 45-48 m/g at 60 and would not dream of towing our AS with it even if you added a few bolts / washers / iron !!! The Silverado gets 18-20 towing and ~26 at the same speeds unladen and, as the old timers (Walter Brennin) say ... we liked it that way... no worries about transmission / power train or brakes.
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Old 02-07-2015, 07:39 PM   #24
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Mpg is a legitimate question. As are any of the costs associated with owning/traveling with an RV.

Asking "what is best" is the first step.

Around here we might reply that "best" revolves around being either a vacationer or a full-timer. And go from there.

I worked the specs of my desired rig prior to purchase of either. First would be this type of TT design. Second would be that the TV would be a turbodiesel. Inherent in both was that each would be the longest lasting of their type. From which came exact brand choices down to details of specification.

The TV chosen needed to achieve, as a truck, high mpg relative when solo. That it was first operated as a business vehicle didn't change that concern.

I've turned down offers for the TT that were a good deal more than I paid for it. The TV has only lost a few thousand in depreciation since purchase eight years ago. So that end of things wound up well covered.

As to mpg I can pull this near state max length combined rig of 63+ feet at 14-16/mpg. Solo, the 3/4T truck stays at or above 24-mpg highway loaded at 85% of gross. It's overall average the past eight years is 21-mpg for all miles. So mpg also wound up well covered, but also required being better behind the wheel. An easy trade off as it helps underwrite vacation travel.

Etcetera

To bring fuel mileage down to brass tacks is to know the mpg as a function of cents-per-mile. Total costs of ownership in that format, first, and a break out of fuel cost second. Total costs may be fixed in main. Financing, depreciation, taxes, insurance, etc., this tends to be half the cost when purchasing new.

There is some room in repairs and maintenance to save and still follow OEM guidelines, but not much. It mainly has to do with better driving to increase component life.

OTOH, fuel cost can be "controlled" or reduced in that CPM calc and first comes TV choice to do that. Vehicle type, and exact spec. This is far and away the most important question as to the annual mpg average. All miles.

Make the wrong choice and it could conceivably cause an owner to retire from the road sooner. Travel fewer miles on a fixed budget. Bigger ain't necessarily better. Not from considerations of cost or safety or reliability or longevity.

I think questions about mpg really come down to range. How much will it cost me to travel X miles?

At $4/gl my average towing fuel cost was $265 per 1000-miles for Interstate non-mountainous. At the current $2.75/gl it is $185.

25-CPM in the first instance, and 18-CPM in the second. 11-CPM solo highway as of today, and an annual overall average of 13-CPM.

Just how economical that is has to be fitted back into the total costs. AAA and EDMUNDS both have info on how to work out this lifetime set of costs. Tools to learn to use.

For me it was also to reduce the non-towing miles by combining trips. The errands around town. With no change in quality, more strictly defined. And then to drive the remaining miles with better skill than before.

So if I imagine I'll travel 4,400-miles this year (and I am), and the current fuel cost holds, my fixed fuel cost to travel is at least $800. To that is ground rent as the other fixed cost of note. Over 20-nights that could conceivably be $1,000. Or higher. Or lower depending on choosing to boondock, etc.

Had I a typically low mpg gasser truck pulling this trailer at a 9-mpg average, the fuel cost would be over $1000.

That $200 can be better spent elsewhere. And as the gasser won't last as long, etc, the total cpm is higher in any case. The $200 savings is deceptively low until one understands how it fits into the larger picture.

On the one hand its four more nights with hookups per year for a summer trip. Another trip altogether "free". Better amenities along the way. And so forth.

The real savings are built into the TV cpm. Vehicle longevity. (Same is true for TT, but is easier to understand as cost per night of use on an annual basis).

Had I chosen the same truck, but spec'd differently, I would have paid for the one I actually have in fuel savings plus repairs the first 200k miles (based on reported numbers by those other owners) at $4/gl. The only cost incurred is a reduced fuel cpm over those eight years. I've been driving for "free" for several years now as a result of careful specification.

I've already learned I can improve non-towing city mpg by 20%. At the annual miles being run at that point it underwrote 5,000-miles of travel. One might say my fuel cost is also free for this proposed trip.

Gas versus diesel is not entirely revealing as some vehicles will not have a long economical life despite high mpg. We can come up with a variety of approaches, and a variety of solutions (as we have, to judge by posts to threads) to this.

But for a given TT under some stated conditions, there will be a best choice as to only mpg.

Wanting to cover nearly half the fixed cost of travel by asking about mpg is directly to the point of costs that can be controlled. Can be optimized.

A TT that can boondock better than others is on the same page. For a given number of annual nights of travel, however, more water, more propane, a genset, and a $$$ solar electric system is a far more expensive way to "save" money. Even as it lowers the daily out of pocket expense.

But it still goes to the lowest cost over the longest period of time. With this type that can be decades of ownership of just one TT. Easier to amortize or absorb.

If one is age fifty and planning to travel this way until age seventy-five with a number of years of restricted retirement income, then keeping TV purchases to two in that period -- and choosing the ones with the greatest longevity and lowest fuel burn -- is a winning strategy.

"How far can I go?" is travel that year, over the life of that TV, and over that quarter century of TT ownership.

TV fuel burn is one of the most important costs to consider. All the benefits of a relatively lightweight, aerodynamic TT can be either enhanced or buried by TV choice.

"What is best?"
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Old 02-07-2015, 07:48 PM   #25
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I understand that some of you out there will pick this all apart with your own way of thinking and that is OK. I try to use the KISS principle, Keep it short & simple, as much as possible.
Perfect point MSMCV51. That is sorta what I did too. The cost of ownership is an overall consideration.
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Old 02-08-2015, 10:34 AM   #26
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Another option....setup by Andrew T !!Click image for larger version

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Old 02-08-2015, 02:22 PM   #27
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The OP's question is also my question. I am in exactly the same boat: looking for a TV for my 20' 2007 Safari.

After research including one or two dozen articles by Andrew T, I had just about decided on a VW Diesel TDI sedan. VW offers four diesels, the Golf, Jetta, Jetta SportsWagen and Passat.. The Jetta sedan seemed the best balance of size, cost, carrying capacity and FE, and very suitable for a daily driver, when I read Andrew T's post above, and took another look at the Passat.
.
Andrew T, these cars all have very similar specs, so is it just a question of comfort?
And thanks for explaining towing so well.
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Old 02-08-2015, 10:48 PM   #28
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How long you will keep the TV should also be considered. Time and miles. Some brands and models don't always have great longevity or reliability.
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