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11-18-2019, 03:09 PM
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#21
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2 Rivet Member
Minneapolis
, Minnesota
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 70
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Hey Everyone,
I was able to hitch up and get out to a Cat Scale this weekend. Luckily I had it to myself for 2 hours. FYI the first weigh is $12.50 and you get an unlimited amount of re-weighs at the same scale for 24 hours for an additional $2.50 per weigh. I've attached a grid of my results along with a couple of photos.
I did do one weigh with trailer tongue on 1 scale and trailer axels on another with the trailer level. I'm hoping that is a fairly accurate reading of tongue weight? According to the scale my tongue weight is 800 lbs but if you do the math with the total weights it looks like it's about 760 lbs, correct?
When I started this post about my first weigh, I had the Blue Ox set up with the 9th link. I did this current test with the 10th link and I think that's the best spot.
I was hoping to try some weighing on the 11th link but I couldn't get the muscle to apply the force needed for the 11th link.
Also for these weights we moved most of our cargo that was in truck bed into trailer. We really like having certain items in truck bed but with the cargo capacity of our truck it looks like it's better to have it in the trailer.
Probably going to put this CAT Scale info in a separate thread in hopes of helping someone else.
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11-18-2019, 05:19 PM
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#22
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Rivet Master
2007 22' International CCD
Corona
, California
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 9,180
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beginner help with WD theory F-150 blue ox
On most WD hitches, raising the front of the trailer as high as reasonably possible with the tongue jack when hitched eases the heavy strain on the WD bars.
Even with my ProPride setup with powered WD jacks, raising the tongue and the back of the truck 6-8 inches above normal towing level makes setting WD tension so much easier. Just be sure to retract the tongue jack fully BEFORE you try to drive off. Don’t ask how I know that...
__________________
Rich, KE4GNK/AE, Overkill Engineering Dept.
'The Silver HamShack' ('07 International 22FB CCD 75th Anniversary)
Multiple Yaesu Ham Radios inside and many antennae sprouting from roof, ProPride hitch, Prodigy P2 controller.
2012 shortbed CrewMax 4x4 Toyota Tacoma TV with more antennae on it.
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11-18-2019, 05:23 PM
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#23
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Site Team
2002 25' Safari
Dewey
, Arizona
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 15,615
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I am surprised that you had to go to the 10th link to get your numbers. Do you have 750 or 1,000 lb bars?
__________________
Richard
Wally Byam Airstream Club 7513
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11-18-2019, 05:49 PM
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#24
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2 Rivet Member
Minneapolis
, Minnesota
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 70
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@rmkrum yep, I jack the truck up via tongue jack to relieve the tension. The 11th link was almost impossible to even reach the tongue ratchet.
@azflycaster We have the 750 pound bars, I'm wishing I had done a weighing with the 9th link. After 2 hours of messing around my wife (and I) were ready to be done.
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11-18-2019, 06:18 PM
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#25
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Walnut Creek
, California
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 3,952
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The difference in front to rear max loading is a surprise. Less on drive axle sounds just wrong, but it's Ford engineering, not mine.
Yes, the 9th link may well be good enough - try it. Test with care. The 10th link gives you a bit more sway resistance, but unloads the traction on the rear axle by reducing that load.
What you are missing now is how the rig handles. So you have a few more days of testing.
Does not look like you need the 1000s and certainly do not need the 11th link to move more weight forward. Unless your manual says there is another ideal. What does the manual advise for ideal front axle load with WD?
Now, what kind of gear did you move to the trailer and where did you store it? That gear stored appropriately in the TV bed may be your key to improving rig tune and matching your preferred load out locations.
You have a bit more load capacity on the TV axles. The max Gross weight specification may conflict with that, but if good handling requires an adjustment in axle loading balance, using the travel speed to lighten up the applied forces is likely a better approach to achieve a safe rig.
Good luck with your tune. Pat
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11-19-2019, 06:17 AM
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#26
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Half a Rivet Short
2017 30' Classic
2022 Interstate 24X
Carlisle
, Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 15,684
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Hi
Take a good look at all the "stuff" you have, both in the trailer and in the truck. Nice to have is not the same as need to have. Some stuff should be in the truck. Other stuff should be in the trailer. Having the tow straps in the trailer does not help when you are out on a dirt road with just the truck. Having the only inventory of certain essentials in the truck at 2AM is equally not helpful ....
We all go through a process of "have I used this in the last year"? to toss things out. That's after trying to sort it all out up front. Yes, not using the tow straps or traffic markers does not count. It's not an automatic sort of thing.
In general, putting things in the truck is a much better idea than putting them in the trailer. Unless it results in an overload, things will tow better. If you have more stuff that the truck can haul, that suggests another lap through the sorting process .... (or a bigger truck). Way cheaper to do some more sorting.
Bob
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11-19-2019, 07:25 AM
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#27
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3 Rivet Member
Currently Looking...
Highlands Ranch
, Colorado
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 225
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It looks like you're close to having the WDH dialed in. One item that I'm scratching my head on is that when the WDH is setup it's supposed to transfer weight to both the front axle of the tow vehicle and the axles of the trailer. If I'm reading it right, it doesn't look like much weight is going back to the trailer axles. I'm still working on my first cup of coffee for the day and someone may have slipped decaf in, so I may not be thinking straight.
As PKI said, the final test is how the rig handles on the highway. The one, clear indicator that I had that my setup wasn't right was that when any vehicle approached from the rear of my rig, it would push the front of my vehicle around, usually in the direction that the passing vehicle was coming from.
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11-19-2019, 07:41 AM
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#28
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2 Rivet Member
Minneapolis
, Minnesota
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 70
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@HRTDK the WD is putting about 240 pounds back to the front axel and about
140 pounds back onto the trailer axels.
What did you adjust to compensate for the front end movement?
I'm wanting to know what else will affect the towing.
Thanks,
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11-19-2019, 12:43 PM
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#29
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Walnut Creek
, California
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 3,952
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FB - other factors ...... the rest of the story/tune ...
Tire pressure/inflation .... enough for load, stiff sidewall and full contact patch
Tire design ....... stiff wall vs comfort compliance ..... optimise your next set
Tow hitch ..... PPP vs Dual Cam vs Blue Ox vs Eaz-i-Lift with sway control strut
Constant tuning ..... your load will change best tune adjustments
Your experience ..... tow seat time delivers understanding of forces acting on rig
Load out .... fresh water carried low and forward of front axle is good weight ....
............ minimum (as Bob said) is good ...... just in case is not so good, but ....
............ weight in middle of TV bed, carried low, offsets tongue weight too ...
............ easy, convenient and your concepts = you are more likely to do ......
............ batteries are a player .... wet vs lithium vs AGM vs location ......
............ dump early and often ....... weight carried aft is bad ......
Modifications .... a lower vehicle is more stable ......
.................. stiffer dampers can improve stability ......
.................. performance brake pads improve stopping ability ......
.................. shorter bumper to ball distance improves stability .....
.................. weight - less, lower, central location, balanced - improves stability ..
.................. the best tow vehicle is the one you have and drive daily ... build it ..
Bottom line - you can do a lot of cost effective tuning to your rig. Adjustments are free. Replace components when OEMs wear out. Maintenance keeps the rig safe. Inspection is free. Checklists are cost effective. Expanding your towing experience helps considerably and only costs your time. Keep investigating, testing, practicing and learning.
Fear drives investment to improve safety. Interchange "fear" with "unknown". If you don't know, slow down a bit. It's the least expensive and fastest solution to implement. Knowledge drives the right investment for safety or allows you to compensate your RV style to stay within budget.
Most important - it's not that hard - stay focused - stay attentive - and have fun.
Hope to see you down the road with a smile. Pat
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11-19-2019, 03:54 PM
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#30
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2 Rivet Member
Minneapolis
, Minnesota
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 70
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Thanks Pat for all the great comments.
I'm coming from a 16' bambi so this is the biggest trailer I've towed. Unfortunately it's mostly put away for the season now and we only got a couple of local camping trips in before we had to winterize. So I really only have maybe 10 hours towing time put in with this trailer. It seemed to tow fine but again I don't have that much time with it yet. I drive on the slower side and tires are only rated to 65 mph so I never go above that.
It appears as if the full tank of water had little affect on tongue weight, thus little affect on my TV cargo capacity. Is towing with a full tank vs empty tank personal preference? With these lower tanks situated above axels, is there an argument to be made for one way being better?
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11-19-2019, 07:28 PM
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#31
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Walnut Creek
, California
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 3,952
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FB - If you have a Front Bed 23, the fresh water tank is just in front of the front axle and very low. That is why, the weight generally contributes little to the tongue weight, but does add weight very low and about as close as possible to the center of the coach. Almost the best position on the coach to carry weight. The tank location on a D/CB is believed to be similar. Waste tanks are aft and best carried close to empty.
Andy at CanAm has stated that the FB tows better with a full fresh tank. We generally tow with only enough fresh water to flush the toilet between overnights. However, we did run with a full tank when towing home from Albuquerque a couple of years ago. We did same when towing home on I10 this fall. We believe the rig tows better with the full tank, but often run empty to reduce weight. You can attribute that to my personal opinion or the best argument that I can field on the issue. Your choice. Pat
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11-20-2019, 06:42 AM
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#32
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Half a Rivet Short
2017 30' Classic
2022 Interstate 24X
Carlisle
, Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 15,684
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Hi
There are a number of trailers that tow better ( = are more stable) with full tanks than with empty. Adding weight down low drops the "center of gravity" of the trailer ....
Bob
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11-20-2019, 06:57 AM
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#33
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3 Rivet Member
Currently Looking...
Highlands Ranch
, Colorado
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbisquit
What did you adjust to compensate for the front end movement?
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More downforce on the WDH. It wasn't configured to transfer enough weight back to the front axle.
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11-22-2019, 10:30 AM
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#34
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Rivet Master
2016 27' International
Sherwood Park
, Alberta
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,029
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle_bob
Hi
There are a number of trailers that tow better ( = are more stable) with full tanks than with empty. Adding weight down low drops the "center of gravity" of the trailer ....
Bob
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I have always been reluctant to tow with a lot of water in the fresh water tank for fear the tank will let go on a rough stretch of interstate. There is no real basis for this fear as I have never seen exactly how the tank is secured. However, I did see a fresh water tank drop on a fairly new SOB, and it was parked at the time and had just been filled.
Clearly a fault in the install but are the tanks in the AS really installed in such a way that the extra stress of a full tank bouncing down a rough stretch of interstate will have no negative effect?
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11-22-2019, 10:58 AM
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#35
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3 Rivet Member
Currently Looking...
Highlands Ranch
, Colorado
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thewarden
I have always been reluctant to tow with a lot of water in the fresh water tank for fear the tank will let go on a rough stretch of interstate. There is no real basis for this fear as I have never seen exactly how the tank is secured. However, I did see a fresh water tank drop on a fairly new SOB, and it was parked at the time and had just been filled.
Clearly a fault in the install but are the tanks in the AS really installed in such a way that the extra stress of a full tank bouncing down a rough stretch of interstate will have no negative effect?
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Your fear is not unfounded. On my trailer (not an AS) I had to replace/fix the crossbeams that support the fresh water tank because they had developed a smile (an arc).
Here is a picture of what the main crossbeam looked like before I corrected it.
To fix this, I removed the bend in the existing crossbeam and then added a new crossbeam next to it that was a heavier gauge square tubing. The other crossbeams were directly replaced. The one in the picture was kept because of the welded vertical tubes that connect to the underslung supports. I didn't want to have to go through the fabrication process. I don't weld.
I suspect that the damage was incurred by a prior owner that filled the 120 gallon tank completely full and then hit some rough roads. Consequently, I rarely travel with a full tank and use a 150 gallon bladder to get water to my trailer if the terrain is unusually rough.
I discovered the bent crossbeams as part of a project to insulate the fresh water tank. Here is the end result.
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11-22-2019, 05:46 PM
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#36
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Walnut Creek
, California
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 3,952
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At least if you believe AS best practice, you would fill the fresh full. You would not dump until black tank is full. That means, the tanks are designed to be towed full. However, one of our posters went through a tank mounting failure. A fellow we talked to just South of the Canadian border claimed that in the far North, tanks pick up road deposits and the extra weight causes the mounts to fail. He also claimed that lots of tanks get knocked off when they hit ice clumps that drop onto the road.
So, I've never been concerned that the tankage was poorly mounted. I do worry about hitting things. I also have never wanted to tow with more weight than necessary to achieve the next objective. And there we have the personal opinion perspective. You are encouraged to investigate and develop your own. Pat
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11-23-2019, 06:50 AM
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#37
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Half a Rivet Short
2017 30' Classic
2022 Interstate 24X
Carlisle
, Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 15,684
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thewarden
I have always been reluctant to tow with a lot of water in the fresh water tank for fear the tank will let go on a rough stretch of interstate. There is no real basis for this fear as I have never seen exactly how the tank is secured. However, I did see a fresh water tank drop on a fairly new SOB, and it was parked at the time and had just been filled.
Clearly a fault in the install but are the tanks in the AS really installed in such a way that the extra stress of a full tank bouncing down a rough stretch of interstate will have no negative effect?
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Hi
The 30' Classic is one of the trailers that is more stable with a full load of water. We tow with the tank full all the time. A lot of others do the same. So far, no reported issues.
Filling the tank and then heading off to a remote site *is* standard practice. a design that would not hold up to a lot of bumps when full would be failing all over the place. Same issue with waste tanks on the return trip.
Bob
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11-23-2019, 07:42 AM
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#38
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Rivet Master
2013 31' Classic
billings
, Montana
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,576
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbisquit
Hello,
I know there is a lot of existing threads on here about WD and I have started searching and reading through them. I was hoping people might be able to point me to what I should be looking for?
We have a 2018 F-150 and just purchased a 2016 AS International Serenity.
The previous owner (seller) included the dealer installed Blue Ox Sway pro hitch and bars. He also helped me adjust the hitch and showed me how the Blue Ox system works. We didn't weigh anything. We just got it to where the AS looked pretty level.
I want to make sure everything is set up correctly and within the proper manufacture specs. Stopped at a CAT scale last weekend on our way out camping.
Results
Steer axle 3180
Drive Axle 3420
Trailer axle 4620
After reading a bit about this I now know that I need to do multiple weighing scenarios and will be going back to do them soon. I'm hoping to understand all this better when I go back. Is the goal of WD to have both the TV axel weights the same?
Also according to these measurements I'm 70 pounds over the drive axel rating.
Do both the axels weights added together equal the vehicle GVWR? If so them I'm 100 pounds over that. Does this mean I need to have less gear in my truck or will adjusting the blue ox system take weight off the rear axel?
Also the trailer had no water in it when I weighed it. Someone in a different thread said having the water tank filled can actually take tongue weight off depending on where the tanks are located. Is this true?
Basically trying to understand what the numerical (cat scale numbers) goal is with WD? What am I trying to get the cat scale numbers to look like? Also hoping that adjusting the blue ox system will take a little more weight off my truck?
Thanks,
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That looks very good to me....right on...keep the tv tires aired up..
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