Another Reality Check!

[RLS]

OK, just got the tongue weight scale and ran out to see what I'm at. WOW, 1,000 lbs. with the trailer almost empty What the *#!^ Then I started to rethink my CAT scale reading of 6,700 lbs. for the trailer loaded and hitched to the TV. Hmm, 6,700 PLUS around 1,100 to 1,200 lbs. loaded tongue weight equals 7,800 to 7,900 lbs. total weight? Max is supposed to be 7,300 lbs.? Doing some serious head scratching here, I have to get rid of 5 to 600 lbs.? Wait a minute, if my thinking is right, doesn't the w/d put 1/3 of the tongue weight back on the axles? sooo, that would mean instead of the 6,700 lbs trailer weight, it is actually around 6,317 lbs.? plus the 1,100 to 1,200 lbs. tongue weight for a total of 7,417 to 7,517 lbs.? Is my thinking right on this? and if so, is being 117 to 217 lbs. over the max allowed OK? or do I have to figure out what to leave behind on our next trip. Also, need to know about the tongue weight being over the 1,000 lbs. that is supposedly max. for this trailer. Is that OK or again do I have to shift things more to the back to keep it at the 1,000 lbs.?

Thanks and I hope it makes sense, Bob

[funkill]

--------------------
Man, I love numbers but this exceeded my limits!

Laura

[moosetags]

I have an '05 25FB that I unhitched and weighed indepandently. She tipped the scales at 7400# ready to camp with empty black and gray tanks, and a 3/4 full freshwater tank.

Brian

[Ag&Au]

Originally Posted by RLS

...................................Wait a minute, if my thinking is right, doesn't the w/d put 1/3 of the tongue weight back on the axles? .................................................. ............................................Thanks and I hope it makes sense, Bob

Is there anyway you can check the tongue weight scale against a known weight? That would be the first thing I would look at.

Now, I have a question. This is the second time this week I have read about weight distribution hitches transferring tongue weight to the trailer axle. As hard as I try to visualize it, I can't. As I see it it the weight distribution bars use leverage to raise the rear of the truck and force the front down, To me this in effect is transferring tongue weight from the trucks rear axle to the trucks front axle. Would someone please try to explain to me what force is increasing the trailer axle weight?
Thanks,
Confused Ken

[RLS]

From what I understand, you have the fulcrum point at the hitch. At this point there is 2/3 of the tongue weight being transferred to the TV and where the chains hook up is where the other 1/3 is being applied back to the trailer. JMHO

Bob

[RLS]

Originally Posted by moosetags

I have an '05 25FB that I unhitched and weighed indepandently. She tipped the scales at 7400# ready to camp with empty black and gray tanks, and a 3/4 full freshwater tank.

Brian

From what you have, I guess I'm right in there. The only diff. being my fresh water is only about 1/3 full, but I think the Safari weighs less unloaded. Any idea what your tongue weight is?

Bob

[jcanavera]

Originally Posted by w7ts

Is there anyway you can check the tongue weight scale against a known weight? That would be the first thing I would look at.

Now, I have a question. This is the second time this week I have read about weight distribution hitches transferring tongue weight to the trailer axle. As hard as I try to visualize it, I can't. As I see it it the weight distribution bars use leverage to raise the rear of the truck and force the front down, To me this in effect is transferring tongue weight from the trucks rear axle to the trucks front axle. Would someone please try to explain to me what force is increasing the trailer axle weight?
Thanks,
Confused Ken

Much like a wheel barrow, some weight goes to the front wheel and some goes to your feet. In the case of a trailer there is a lifting process much like the wheel barrow that transfers the weight to both the tow vehicle and trailer wheels. Consider the the entire process a balancing act. Remember that in some cases the trailer is also in a nose down position so in effect you are forcing the rear end of the car up thus transferring some weight to the front wheel of the car. At the same time the trailer hitch is being raised transferring weight to its wheels.

[Ag&Au]

Originally Posted by RLS

From what I understand, you have the fulcrum point at the hitch. At this point there is 2/3 of the tongue weight being transferred to the TV and where the chains hook up is where the other 1/3 is being applied back to the trailer. JMHO

Bob

Thanks Bob,
I am going to have to draw a picture. I took a couple years of engineering before I changed my major so I should be able to figure this out. You brought up a few points, I have never thought about. I have always assumed the GVW of the trailer was the weight on the axles and it was the TV's job to handle the tongue weight. Now, I need to mull that over.
I wonder what type of hitch you have. The subject of tongue weight came up to me recently, when it occurred to me that the ProPride 3P was adding a significant amount of weight to the tongue when the trailer is unhitched. Now I need to figure out what happens to that when hitched.
Still confused but getting better,
Ken

[Chuck]

Think of picking up a wheel-barrow. The handles work like the spring bars for your WD hitch.

I know...no tongue weight involved there, so picture this: you're leaning on the back edge of the wheelbarrow with your chest...(its a really tall sitting wheelbarrow)...feet still on the ground, supporting most of your weight. pull up on the handles...weight is shifted to your feet, and the front axle. this is what your wd hitch is doing. the amounts that get shifted, and in which direction, depends on the distance between the tow vehicle's rear axle and the trailer axles, and the location of the ball.

[Ag&Au]

Originally Posted by jcanavera

Much like a wheel barrow, some weight goes to the front wheel and some goes to your feet. In the case of a trailer there is a lifting process much like the wheel barrow that transfers the weight to both the tow vehicle and trailer wheels. Consider the the entire process a balancing act. Remember that in some cases the trailer is also in a nose down position so in effect you are forcing the rear end of the car up thus transferring some weight to the front wheel of the car. At the same time the trailer hitch is being raised transferring weight to its wheels.

Thanks Jack,
It is sinking in now a bit.

And Bob,
As soon as I understand the problem, I will let you know if I agree with your math. In the meantime I'll be quiet so someone can answer your question instead of mine.
regards,
Ken

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by RLS

... Is my thinking right on this?...

hi bob

the short answer to your question is NO.
____________________

i have read your MAIN thread on this issue...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...uts-56285.html

and the data is NOT interruptible by mere mortals.

while your efforts to get data are commendable, i've got NO FAITH that any of it was obtained correctly.

it is also CONFOUNDED by the tv in question which has AUTO leveling that fiddles with the axle loads continuously...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...mph-45618.html

we've also discussed w/d and whirled peas in your thread from LAST SUMMER...

and there is some useful pixels therein (stop reading at post #50):

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...ion-44825.html
____________________

no offense, but you need to repeat the weighing exercise...

and take someone along who can help with the process.

i volunteer funkill, she loves numbers, and managed to sort this stuff out recently herself.

see HER thread on the issue or mine.
_____________________

it is UMPOSSIBLE to accurately measure REAL tongue mass (tm) without UNHOOKING the trailer and LEVELING it.

tm can be estimated with a VALID set of other measures, but that is not much better than just using the published GUESSES.

and just to CONFUSE you more, the HITCH mass counts against tv payload NOT tongue mass...
______________________

wheel barrels, beer barrels, bring out your dead...

w/d is NOT like a wheel barrel. that is a tired simple analogy but NOT accurate.

it's really more of a metaphor (representing something that IS with something that is NOT) to be avoided.

and confuses the way w/d really functions, with a manure tool (ok, maybe it IS a good comparison)

the w/b is a type of lever, and w/d bars use leverage,

but with the fixed points and forces used coming from ENTIRELY DIFFERENT classes of leverage and force.

for example THIS video explains how a w/b is used, and what some forum members haul...

YouTube - Monty Python-Bring out your dead!

for those of you that want betta info try here...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/610748-post83.html

for more pain read the full thread, but the good posts come later...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...tml#post610748

more info is HERE (especially posts 30-70) but hey it's just a wheel barrel, right?

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...rol-17986.html

take home message the cup PUSHED DOWN on the ball and w/d bars ADD to that DOWNWARD force with ROTATIONAL force (torque),

but they don't LIFT it like handles on a w/barrel...

Originally Posted by w7ts

... As hard as I try to visualize it, I can't...

hi ken, you are having trouble visualizing because it is LARGELY not true as typically described.

the torque (rotational/twisting force) at the ball, created by the w/d bars works forward via the tv frame, to lift up and push down as you described.

since the trailer tongue isn't ANCHORED to the ground, a much smaller but identical action is directed reward into the trailer.

SOME of that results in added mass at the trailer ground contact point.

HOW MUCH depends on a lot of variables like frame length and STIFFNESS, number of axles, position of axles and so on...

SHORT single axle trailers will see more transfer and LONG multiaxle trailers LESS.

"2/3s forward and 1/3 rear" is the often posted expectation but about as real as the barrel that carries the holy grail.

nick's thread explains what happens going forward. if you understand JUST write the equations sbrawkcad and insert.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...sis-19236.html

i'm no engineer but the math (and diagrams) that does explain it in engineer lingo is available

and so are sticks for eye-poken.
_________

back to bob and his rig, best of luck but start OVER and get new numbers, then maybe put is ALL in one place

so we aren't playing HOPSCOTCH here, REALITY is confusing enough.

cheers
2air'

[richinny]

please correct me if i'm wrong.....

i thought that with weight distribution, about 1/3 of the tongue weight stays with the trailer and 2/3's transfers to the tow veh.

the trailer "loses" weight (2/3) that gets added to the tow veh.

[87MH]

In response to 2airs' post #11 -

I understand it -

I agree with it -

I am extremely concerned about the above 2 statements.....

Welcome back!

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by richinny

please correct me if i'm wrong...

ok, you are corrected....

and when the headache subsides, go read.

cheers
2air'

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by RLS

Max is supposed to be 7,300 lbs.?

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f437...ted-53522.html

[Airslide]

6005 posts and aint nobody going to switch it back!

Vin

[87MH]

Here are the results of a morning at the local Love's CAT scale.

Not all of the weights will total to 100% ALL of the time - but they are close - I think the differences in the total weights on ALL of the axles are explained be the slight height differences in the tongue height AND the weighing differences in the actual pads and the position of the axles on the pads during the various weighs.


Tow Vehicle (Excursion) Total Weight (unloaded) - 7600 lbs

front Ex axle - 3840 lbs 38 1/4" rear Ex axle - 3760 lbs 39 1/2"

Trailer Total Weight 7320 lbs.

Front Trailer Axle 3180 lbs, Rear Trailer Axle 3280 lbs, Tongue Weight 860 lbs

With the tongue dropped on the hitch and the weight distribution NOT engaged

Front Ex axle 3060 lbs 39", Rear Ex axle 5520 lbs 36 5/8", Total Trailer 6,280 lbs

Next, bring the Hensley up to the #1 position (this is like having 5 chain links in tension)

Front Ex axle 3540 lbs 37 1/2", Rear Ex axle 4880 lbs 38", Total Trailer 6,460 lbs

With this first position I added 480 lbs to the front, and brought the front down 2".

I took 640 lbs off of the rear, raised the rear about 1 1/2" AND added 180 lbs to the trailer weight, a bit more than the 1/3 and 2/3 ratio (1 to 3.556 actually).

Next, with the Hensley brought up to the #2 position (comparable to having 4 links in tension on a chain type WD system)

Front Ex axle 3640 lbs 37 1/2", Rear Ex axle 4700 lbs 38 1/4", Total Trailer 6,460 lbs
I took 180 lbs off of the rear and added 100 lbs to the front, trailer weight remained the same - now, I know these numbers do not add up, I am just reporting the numbers as I recorded them - but - the numbers ARE establishing a pattern.

Next, with the Hensley brought up to the #3 position (comparable to having 3 links in tension on a chain type WD system)

Front Ex axle 3780 lbs 37 1/2", Rear Ex axle 4520 lbs 38 1/4", Total Trailer 6,560 lbs
I took another 180 lbs off of the rear axle and added 140 lbs to the front axle, this setting added another 100 lbs to the trailer axles.

I hope this explanation of a "typical" scale weighing clears things us a bit.

Don't expect for everything to "add up".

Measurement of the front and rear body wheel wells IS important as a first cut to bringing about the original weight back to the steering axle.

Remember, the more rear overhang you have on your Tow Vehicle the more important it is to add back the original weight to the front axle (the rear axle acts as a fulcrum to take weight off of the front when the trailer tongue weight is dropped all of the way back at the ball).

Can't explain the front wheel well not changing - could well be that I mis-measured one or more of the readings.

Like I said, the readings are what they are, the one obvious thing is that the more tension that I put on the Weight Distributing bars the more weight I add to the trailer and the front axle, AND more weight is removed from the rear axle.

The proportion of weight moved to the trailer axles will certainly change with the differences of rear overhang from vehicle to vehicle.

Total weight transferred in my case from the bars totally relaxed to the full "up" # 3 position was 1,000 lbs removed from the rear axle, 720 lbs added to the front axle, and 280 lbs added to the trailer weight, or a 1 to 2.6 proportion.

The importnt thing was I brought my TV back to "level", added enough weight to the front to where I have almost the same weight on the steering axle as before hooking up the Sovereign, and, most importantly, I KNOW the weights of everything.

Getting the weights (and comparing them to the manufacturers rating of your Tow Vehicle and AS) is just TOO cheap and TOO simple to forgo this simple safety procedure.

Please post your findings -

Tow safe -

Stream on -

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by Airslide

6005 posts and aint nobody going to switch it back!

Vin

Please don't scare him back in the bunny hole....

[RLS]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f437...ted-53522.html

I saw that when posted, and I thought Airstream never cuts corners!

2air', I do understand about the % loads to the axles being diff. depending on vehicle and trailer specs. and how the 1/3 to 2/3 tongue load is pure speculation. Thanks for getting me to understand it better. I do think that I do have some honest weights though. The tongue weight I just did today using the Sherline trailer scale. So that 1,000 lbs. IS correct with trailer not loaded. Trailer is level. The loaded tv with a full tank of gas, w/d shank with head installed, not connected to trailer, weighs 3,100 front, 3,140 lbs. rear. The tv hitched to the trailer weighs 7,140 lbs. The trailer hitched to the tv weighs 6,700 lbs. The tv diff. between being hitched and not is 900 lbs! This is why I originally was asking if this kind of tongue load is OK

Bob

[funkill]

Bob - man, you're performing an awful lot of mental/physical gymnastics to get this pulled together. I don't exactly understand what you're trying to accomplish, but I feel for you! As I'm sure time and money are as precious to you as anyone. I looked for alternatives but finally realized that just going to the scales and performing the (5) different weigh-ins was the easiest, cheapest and most effiecient manner for me. After roughly 4 hours of work, $50 (plus gas for the 35 mile round trip), I know pretty good *where I'm at* and my limitations - both for my TV and TT...

Wishing you luck -

Thanks 2air' for the vote of confidence - I think. I think it was a vote of confidence. Sometimes I live in a fantasy world. But only when I'm safe at home!

Laura