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Old 05-31-2015, 09:21 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moflash View Post
OK,Lets try a simple example.
Hook your Airstream to your tow vehicle without a wd hitch.Now lets say your trailers tongue weight is 800lbs for example.Now grab a 10ft 4x4 and place it under the tow vehicles distribution chassis hitch.Now use the 4x4 as a lever and lift the rear of the tow vehicle (you have super human strength).
Now some of the weight that was on the rear axle is transferred to the front axles as you have the rear of the tow vehicle lifted right?As you are holding the rear of the tow vehicle up(super human strength remember) you place the high end of the 4x4 against the Airstream and now the 4x4 (lever) holds the rear of the tow vehicle in place(in the up position).
A few things have now been affected.

1.A percentage of the load on the rear axle has been transferred to the front axle due to you raising the rear of the tv.

2.The downward force on the 4x4 (lever) transfers additional weight to the Airstream axles because it is holding up the rear end of the tow vehicle. Remember the lever effect?

3.Weight is also removed from the tow vehicles weight distribution chassis hitch.Allowing the hitch to hold more weight with a wd hitch because we are pushing up on it. Remember we placed the 4x4 (lever) under it to lift the rear of the tow vehicle and it is still lifted but the Airstream is holding it up.

Now you tell me what is the trailers tongue weight and how did we affect it?
We did not it is constant but....

In some cases the tongue weight of the trailer increases.Why? Remember the down force that was added to the Airstream in order to continue to hold up the tow vehicle? Lever affect remember?

This is how a wd hitch works.

Simple physics get complicated sometimes
Wow. This is some real double talk. It's similar to the logical fallacy

"Russian threats are no news and
No news is good news
Therefore, Russian threats are good news

This is a discussion about concerns people have with the adequacy of their TV as regards cargo capacity.

Should I buy a 1/2 ton, 3/4 ton, or larger TV?

Or, will I use up all of my cargo capacity with the AS published tongue weight? (857# for my AS)

To continue to assert that trailer tongue weight remains constant when using a WD hitch is pointlessly misleading.

Of course the weight doesn't evaporate into the ozone when you redistribute it, any more than I can click my heels together 3 times and make my AS disappear.

For the purpose of estimating the adequacy of TV cargo capacity, you should multiply the AS tongue weight by 2/3 or in my case 857 x 2/3 = 574#. This is a good ESTIMATE of how much cargo capacity I'm using up with AS tongue weight. The other 1/3 now lies on the AS axels.

So if I'm estimating how much of my cargo capacity is consumed by AS tongue weight, the only correct estimate is 574#

To assert that AS tongue weight remains constant is both pointless and misleading.

My WD hitch instructions indicate that without the WD bars that the max carrying capacity is 600#. Without redistributing 1/3 of the AS tongue weight to the TV front axle and 1/3 to the AS axle, I am overloading my hitch before I've even added a plastic fork and knife to my AS.

If you're attempting to estimate the adequacy of your TV cargo carrying capacity, use 2/3 of the published AS tongue wt. and add this with the other cargo items.

It's always a good idea to weigh things at a truck scale to insure that you haven't overloaded your TV axles/tires.

Stay tuned next week for "a hamburgers weight remains constant even after it's been consumed" or "a redistributed hamburger is still a hamburger". Plz don't try to sell me the redistributed hamburger as an unchanged constant.

Maybe you should go with more of a matter is neither created nor destroyed type argument?
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Old 05-31-2015, 10:06 AM   #72
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Thanks for this but I do understand how the WD hitch works. What I am struggling with is the concept of tongue weight. I will try to explain.

I have read that using one of those sure-line scales is the best way to determine your trailer's tongue weight. This makes perfect sense to me. No truck involved, no hitch just the weight of the tongue on the scale. Now remember your statement about this weight being a constant.

Mine would be over 1200 pounds. When I follow the weighing protocol and determine my tongue weight, I get 880 pounds. I do understand the role of the WD hitch in all of this and it make sense to me but it does contradict much of what has been stated in this thread regarding TW. I "know" that the weight does not disappear, it only gets redistributed, so it must remove some from the hitch and I think that is the point some posters were trying to make.

Specifically, when you have a half ton and the true TW of 1200 pounds will put you over your payload limit. In my case, 880 is much less than 1200 but the 320 pound "savings" here is not accurate because some of that (but not all) has moved to the front axle of the TV. Do you see where people can get confused?
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Old 05-31-2015, 03:17 PM   #73
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Airstream Serenity 27FB tow vehicle specs

This is why I no longer tow with a 1/2 ton pickup.I just does not compute no matter how you look at it.Some trailers require a larger capacity truck and that is why they build all different sizes.


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Old 05-31-2015, 04:27 PM   #74
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Using a tongue weight scale to determine how much weight is added to the truck when hitched is really not very accurate. Penciling and adding up published numbers is even worse.

Too many factors involved, placement of the scale along the length of the trailer tongue changes the reading, weight distribution hitch effectiveness, is the trailer dead level when weighed alone and weighed attached and weight distribution applied, position of the travel gear in the truck and the trailer, tank liquids. To name a few.

The only way to know is with the fully loaded truck weighed separately, and then the loaded truck weighed again (truck only on the scale), trailer hitched to it with weight distribution applied. Both times trailer dead level. The difference in truck weight is how much weight is added to the truck.

It doesn't have to end there. If overloaded (primary concern is axle and tire ratings but that's another argument) you can reevaluate gear actually needed, reposition gear in the trailer and reposition, remove, or replace Airstream accessories and equipment with lighter equipment.

Airstreamers tow with vehicles of all sizes and style, and most are safe and happy doing it. Each owner has different needs and preferences. But don't give up because someone tells you the numbers don't add up on paper.

Spend some time learning how to set it up properly or enlist someone who can. Spend some money on the best hitch equipment you can get.

cheryl
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Old 05-31-2015, 07:03 PM   #75
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Wish you good luck on your new 27 RB IS., I tow with a 1500HD Chevy, 6L, 373, CC, w/Michelin tires. I get 11.5 mpg in Tx and OK. Pulls like a dream, I will not buy another SOB TT. No rubber roof, steps lower to ground, easier to keep clean, much better resale value than a Class C or SOB TT. We decided we did not need to take the whole house with us.
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Old 06-01-2015, 09:58 AM   #76
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One size doesn't fit all? Or even many?

TV preferences are often about the AS owner's personality. If you are thoughtful about how you use your AS there are a wide array of TV choices that work really well.

Many 1/2 ton trucks with tow packages are well suited as are 3/4 tons or larger.

Good luck in your search. There are lots of great options to choose from!

Greg
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Old 06-01-2015, 11:13 AM   #77
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Hmm... OP hasn't been heard from since post #22.

Anyway, arguing aside about how many angels can stand on a trailer tongue, we've had good experiences towing our 2014 International Signature 27FB with our Ram 1500.

However, if we had it to do over again, we probably have gone with a 3/4 ton just for load capacity. With our current configuration, due to the heavier-than-specified AS tongue weight, we keep the front of the trailer as light as we can and don't carry much in the bed of the truck. It would be nice if we didn't have to mess with that.

Your mileage may vary. Do what you like, like what you do.
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Old 06-01-2015, 11:43 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckottum View Post
Using a tongue weight scale to determine how much weight is added to the truck when hitched is really not very accurate. Penciling and adding up published numbers is even worse.

Too many factors involved, placement of the scale along the length of the trailer tongue changes the reading, weight distribution hitch effectiveness, is the trailer dead level when weighed alone and weighed attached and weight distribution applied, position of the travel gear in the truck and the trailer, tank liquids. To name a few.

The only way to know is with the fully loaded truck weighed separately, and then the loaded truck weighed again (truck only on the scale), trailer hitched to it with weight distribution applied. Both times trailer dead level. The difference in truck weight is how much weight is added to the truck.

It doesn't have to end there. If overloaded (primary concern is axle and tire ratings but that's another argument) you can reevaluate gear actually needed, reposition gear in the trailer and reposition, remove, or replace Airstream accessories and equipment with lighter equipment.

Airstreamers tow with vehicles of all sizes and style, and most are safe and happy doing it. Each owner has different needs and preferences. But don't give up because someone tells you the numbers don't add up on paper.

Spend some time learning how to set it up properly or enlist someone who can. Spend some money on the best hitch equipment you can get.

cheryl
Well written logical post - well done!
Thanks

Doug
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Old 06-02-2015, 07:05 AM   #79
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Tongue weight

Quote:
Originally Posted by aftermath View Post
Thanks for this but I do understand how the WD hitch works. What I am struggling with is the concept of tongue weight. I will try to explain.

I have read that using one of those sure-line scales is the best way to determine your trailer's tongue weight. This makes perfect sense to me. No truck involved, no hitch just the weight of the tongue on the scale. Now remember your statement about this weight being a constant.

Mine would be over 1200 pounds. When I follow the weighing protocol and determine my tongue weight, I get 880 pounds. I do understand the role of the WD hitch in all of this and it make sense to me but it does contradict much of what has been stated in this thread regarding TW. I "know" that the weight does not disappear, it only gets redistributed, so it must remove some from the hitch and I think that is the point some posters were trying to make.

Specifically, when you have a half ton and the true TW of 1200 pounds will put you over your payload limit. In my case, 880 is much less than 1200 but the 320 pound "savings" here is not accurate because some of that (but not all) has moved to the front axle of the TV. Do you see where people can get confused?
I does seem confusing at times.

When I was trying to wrap my head around the principles of AS tongue weight redistribution, I initially believed that I was overloading my TV and I was prepared to buy a TV that would tow a bulldozer or 2. (My wife continues to refuse me my own bulldozer. Go figure!)

In my AS manual they have a sketch of a TV with an AS hooked up to it. They label the TV front axle as 1/3, the TV rear axle as 1/3 and the AS axle as 1/3. Each of these 3 identified load points is designed to carry 1/3 of the AS tongue weight when your WD hitch is properly installed and setup.

So in your example with an AS tongue weight of 1200#, the redistributed tongue weight using WD bars will equal 400 additional # to the TV front axle, 400 # to the TV rear axle, and 400# to the AS axles. Add the 3 together and this is what happened to the original 1200# of AS tongue weight.

Cheryl correctly directs you to consider a variety of other factors to help determine if you're overloading your TV cargo capacity.

Weight redistribution as depicted in the AS manual is only intended to provide an ESTIMATE of cargo capacity used by your AS tongue weight. The ultimate test is to go to the scales and weigh your rig.

It's possible to load your AS improperly, your TV improperly, and setup your WD hitch improperly to create a dangerous situation regardless of the towing capacity/cargo capacity of your selected TV. If you are careless with good towing principles, then the size of the tow vehicle quickly becomes irrelevant.

Good luck and have fun!

Greg
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