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Old 09-12-2016, 10:39 AM   #71
Tom T
 
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Thanx to Alluminati & Richw46 et al for the additional info on the Toy/Lex TVs.

I must admit that seeing this roll-over with a GX460 + 16' Bambi gave me pause regarding it as a TV for us - what with it's higher CG, compared to the Cayenne/Touareg/AudiQ7 trio's lower profile & CG. So this discussion is of interest to me relative to our prospective TV purchase.

Unfortunately the Sequoyah is too big for us, it being similar size to Big 3 full size SUVs, but a worthy TV.

I'm finding locally zero 4Runner V8's within my <60,000 miles limit, & didn't realize that the GX470/460 was a different platform. Our main concern with those 4R-V8 & GX470/460 V8 versions, were stiff/rough ride quality on long trips & higher CG relative to body sway, with both/all being truck body on frame chassis.

So we'll have to go drive a GX460/470 locally to see how it compares to the lower & unibody Cayenne.

In fact, finding local SoCal or CA low mile Toy/Lex TVs of any of the 3 SUV ranges - 4R/GX, LC/LX, Sequoyah - are very few & far between - oncy we rule out the far too many black ones & black interiors, which are way too hot here & the Southwest (same problem with black on/in Cayennes).

I don't see the advantages to the Land Cruiser/LX470/570 options though, with they being actually more expensive than the same year/miles 2008-14 Cayenne S V8s. While I want AWD/4WD for towing in weather & in certain other steep grade &/or loose surface situations - we're not going to be doing the heavy duty off-roading which some on here do.

Also, the same year/mile GX470/460 are similarly priced to the Cayenne S - whose ride, stability, braking & towing capability we like, so don't think that we're just being highfalutin going that way (as are similarly equipped/optioned with AWD/4WD V8 pick-ups & full size SUVs from almost any mfgr. in the used car market).

Plus there are more low mile & well cared for CayS's out there - but 3/4s in black though!

The F250s & RAM 2500s which we've been renting are killers for us on long trips, & even get the kidneys rolling on rough roads on short local hops - hitched or not! That was a major factor in our deciding to buy a TV, in addition to wanting to go out of state, & to do more trips (rental cost = ownership at 5-6 weekly rentals for us).

Cheers!
Tom
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Old 09-16-2016, 10:47 AM   #72
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Two Vehicles later I could tow my Bambi '19

I bought a 2007 Bambi '19 from Ewald's Airstream of Wisconsin this spring. They watched me tow it out of the garage with my 2016 Toyota Highlander, the technician told me I would never need any additional towing safety measures for weight distribution or sway control. He put more air out in the back tires to try to get the back level as it was sagging.

We drove 250 miles back home, as it got dark a passing car motioned to us that we had no running lights. The 7 way plug, which he lubricated, had come out of the harness and was dragging on the ground.

We make it home and three weeks later I went to have a stabilizer tow unit installed but when I arrived at the installer's business the ENTIRE back bumper was pulled off the car and the Toyota factory installed Type 111 hitch was bent off the frame of the car. I found out that the tow weight was OK but the tongue weight was not OK. The Highlander has a 500 lb tongue weight and the Bambi has a 630 lb tongue weight. I could have been seriously injured or killed if that hitch had torn off the car driving 50 mph on the freeway.

I was scheduled to head out for Seattle the next day. There was no way I could leave. I took the Highlander back to Toyota, all the staff gathered to see the bent hitch, nobody had seen anything like it. The car had 1400 miles on it but I traded it in for a Toyota Tacoma Truck at a huge financial loss. They all told me, no problem, you won't need a stabilizer hitch. The truck has it built in. Another piece of false information, any big fast-driving semi would send the Bambi all over the road. As I traveled across the country every RV shop in the west was booked. I barely made it to Spokane Wa driving 50 mph. Airstream of Spokane's best tech in the whole world, Doug Fitzthum put a stabilizer hitch on it and I was finally safe. (They won a national Service Award in 2014).

Never tow with a vehicle that is does not have the correct tongue weight!
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Old 09-16-2016, 11:00 AM   #73
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Airstream Roll-Over in Idaho Today

I tow my 1967 24ft Tradewind with a 2003 Lexus GX470 and a Equalizer hitch. The older Tradewinds are much lighter than the newer models having a dry weight of only 3,900 lbs and the Lexus does just fine. I've never had any issues with sway, but I'm quite careful to hold my speed down while towing. It's generally rock solid, but somewhat under-powered for steep climbs.

Personally, I would not recommend towing anything heavier than 5,000 lbs with this SUV. It's a very comfortable and dependable vehicle, but it has limitations. A diesel pick-up is sure to be on my horizon..........
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Old 09-16-2016, 11:08 AM   #74
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not an expert here, but maybe no sway bar ?? also, seems too small to pull at 25" AS
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Old 09-16-2016, 11:20 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alluminati View Post
Excerpt from Toyota Tacoma owners' manual:

"Trailer Sway Control (vehicles with towing hitch and 7 pin connector)
Helps the driver to control trailer sway by selectively applying brake pressure for individual wheels and reducing engine torque when trailer sway is detected."

...]
I wonder,...if Toyota 'reduces engine torque' ... If that means the throttle/engine-power is reduced, ...that would be contraindicated during a sway-event. A swaying trailer should be prevented from "pushing" the TV around (either by applying trailer brakes or accelerating the TV, or both.) ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuvite-F View Post
... I try to travel with my fresh water tank (forward) at least half full. ....
It may be a minor point, but tanks empty...or full...would be better than sloshing (half-full would exacerbate any sway.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuvite-F View Post
... Second, adding weight at either end of the trailer increases its moment of inertia about the axle in the yaw axis, which adversely affects sway stability. ....
Yes, ...once sway has developed. But first it would resist sway from developing.
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Old 09-16-2016, 12:00 PM   #76
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Replacement Value insurance

Question on insurance (I'm fairly new to ownership of our 2011 25' Flying Cloud). When I signed up for our policy through USAA, I didn't have much success with getting the full value insured. (Based on what I paid for the trailer).

Any suggestions?
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Old 09-16-2016, 12:05 PM   #77
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After reading this and all the time and money we have and still are investing in our 67 Caravel I realized that my old Montero was not up to the task. I just bought a VW Touareg with a V10 TDI and stability control. There is a youtube video of one towing a 747, so I think it will be suitable for my 2800# Caravel
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Old 09-16-2016, 12:14 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CamanoIsland View Post
I bought a 2007 Bambi '19 from Ewald's Airstream of Wisconsin this spring. They watched me tow it out of the garage with my 2016 Toyota Highlander, the technician told me I would never need any additional towing safety measures for weight distribution or sway control. He put more air out in the back tires to try to get the back level as it was sagging.

We drove 250 miles back home, as it got dark a passing car motioned to us that we had no running lights. The 7 way plug, which he lubricated, had come out of the harness and was dragging on the ground.

We make it home and three weeks later I went to have a stabilizer tow unit installed but when I arrived at the installer's business the ENTIRE back bumper was pulled off the car and the Toyota factory installed Type 111 hitch was bent off the frame of the car. I found out that the tow weight was OK but the tongue weight was not OK. The Highlander has a 500 lb tongue weight and the Bambi has a 630 lb tongue weight. I could have been seriously injured or killed if that hitch had torn off the car driving 50 mph on the freeway.

I was scheduled to head out for Seattle the next day. There was no way I could leave. I took the Highlander back to Toyota, all the staff gathered to see the bent hitch, nobody had seen anything like it. The car had 1400 miles on it but I traded it in for a Toyota Tacoma Truck at a huge financial loss. They all told me, no problem, you won't need a stabilizer hitch. The truck has it built in. Another piece of false information, any big fast-driving semi would send the Bambi all over the road. As I traveled across the country every RV shop in the west was booked. I barely made it to Spokane Wa driving 50 mph. Airstream of Spokane's best tech in the whole world, Doug Fitzthum put a stabilizer hitch on it and I was finally safe. (They won a national Service Award in 2014).

Never tow with a vehicle that is does not have the correct tongue weight!
Exceeding the tongue weight by 130lbs ripped the hitch off the car? No safety factor or was there a manufacturing defect?
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Old 09-16-2016, 01:01 PM   #79
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Who here is a forensic crash specialist? Anybody?
Yes, since you asked... I have been trained as a collision re-constructionist. I'm certified as a crime scene technician from Cal State Long Beach, and an FBI trained, CA Superior Court qualified fingerprint expert. I supervised a crime scene unit for about seven years in a NoCal Sheriff's Department. I retired from law enforcement about six years ago as a police executive.

There is, at least from my perspective, nothing to be learned from the photos shown nor to be inferred from the Sergeant's chat or any of the information provided in the news articles. They merely show the final resting place of the vehicle involved and its condition, and that the driver reported that the trailer began to sway.

I enjoy reading threads like this as it's interesting to read all the conjecture about the "facts" gleaned from the articles and photos. Folks, unless we're at the scene and conducting the investigation, we really don't have a clue and conjecture isn't very valuable. You need to know many, many things about an accident scene... not the least of which would be the co-efficient of drag of the roadway at the site of the onset of sway... lane condition and host of specific things about both the trailer and tow vehicle and their condition immediately before the crash. You need to interview the driver, passengers, and other witnesses and then do the necessary measurements at the scene to determine if all of the physical evidence and witness statements are all consistent. After you eliminate all of the inconsistencies in the testimony and physical evidence, THEN you can begin to look for the primary cause. The physical evidence, btw, is generally much more reliable (and in a prosecution effort, important) than witness statements.

Further, most cops, and many accident reconstructionists, unless they specialize in it, don't really have much experience in reconstructing trailer accidents; nor do they understand the dynamics or causes of "sway." They don't understand hitches, hitch weight issues, or GCVWR issues. Most of you here probably know a LOT more about that stuff than the average cop. Likely the report will list the primary cause of the accident as "speed unsafe for conditions" and "trailer sway" as a contributing factor and that'll be it. The facts of this case are that there's only one vehicle involved, minor injuries, and no compelling reason for an investigator or collision re-constructionist to spend an inordinate amount of time figuring out what happened in this accident.

I also had a '94 Airstream 34' two-door tri-axle that wiggled enough behind my Y2K Excursion that it scared the hell out of me. There were several issues; primarily having to do with draw bar length, tires, shocks, springs, and rear-axle steering, all on the Excursion. It took me almost a year and a half to figure out how to make the Excursion a safe tow vehicle for that 34' tri-axle with mods to each of those systems. There's an old thread here somewhere about the mods I did back in '03-'04.

I've also had a 2300lb 15' fiberglass RV trailer (a Trillium) jump off the hitch ball on the Excursion at 65 mph and sway enough on the safety chains that it was bouncing on one wheel at the peaks of the sine wave. It was jerking HARD on the rear end of the 7500 lb Excursion and was beginning to cause the rear tires to skid sideways on the Excursion before I could get it under control. Had I not gotten slowed down and brought the trailer's wild gyrations down, I'm sure it'd have rolled the Excursion.

All trailers sway at speed. Some are, by design, more likely to have the sway onset at lower speeds than others. The best you can do is to raise the speed of onset higher than what you normally drive.

Normal wiggles from passing trucks, btw, is NOT sway. Sway is when the trailer makes an increasingly larger swing from side to side gathering energy with each swing until it is able to break the traction of the tow vehicles' rear axle tires and throw the tow vehicle around with it. A wiggle event from passing trucks is uncomfortable and a result of bad aerodynamics. It may be indicative of any of the problems I'll list below, but it's NOT sway. A sway event, if you can control it, will leave you stopped at the side of the road, out of your vehicle, trembling with fear. If you can't control it, you roll. That's the universe of possibilities in a sway event.

Too much is made of heavy vs. light tow vehicles, and short vs. long wheelbase tow vehicles. Although given the choice I'd take a heavy, long wheelbase vehicle every time, short wheelbase tow vehicles when set up properly can tow just as safely and effectively as a long wheelbase heavy vehicle. The difference is that a heavier, longer wheelbase vehicle will give you more time to respond to problems than a light, short wheelbase one will. Neither is more likely to induce sway, however; and the short wheelbase vehicle will likely succumb to a sway event more quickly.

Sway can be induced by:

1) less than 15% tongue weight (either through poor design, improper hitch height, or improper loading)
2) soft sidewall tires (on either tow vehicle or trailer)
3) underinflated tires (on either tow vehicle or trailer)
4) tow vehicle rear-axle steering (insufficient ability to keep the body centered above the axle)
5) tow vehicle soft rear suspension
6) improper hitch setup
7) equipment failure (hitch parts)
8) tire failures at speed (on either tow vehicle or trailer)
9) poor trailer design (weight distribution)

Addressing each of those issues before starting out towing can dramatically reduce your risk of having to deal with a sway event. The last item, poor trailer design, is much harder to fix yourself. Bigfoot Industries screwed up on their 25CB17.5 trailers' design and had the axle too far forward (resulting in inadequate tongue weight) for the weight distribution of the trailer which contributed to a number of reported sway events. They issued a recall for the trailer and the fix was welding a couple of hundred pounds of plate steel to the tongue; not a good plan in my book.

Other than the outrageous expense and adding a hundred pounds of unnecessary tongue weight (maybe not a bad thing for the Bigfoot 25CB17.5?) there's nothing inherently wrong with the expensive sway-control hitches... but the sad truth is that they do nothing to fix the things that can induce sway at a lower speed; they just mask the symptoms essentially by fooling the physics of the trailer into thinking it's a fifth wheel. You're much better off to understand what "sway" is, how it begins, and to eliminate the factors that induce early-onset sway rather than allow your safety to be in the hands of an expensive mechanical device that magically "guarantees anti-sway."

So... That's my take, both as a forensic collision re-constructionist, and as a trailer owner who had to track down all of the reasons my tow vehicle was performing poorly and a subsequent survivor of a trailer sway event.

You are each entitled and welcome to your own opinions, and I respect that some of you likely may not agree with my assessment. Feel free to challenge anything I've said, but please be prepared to back your opinion up with facts rather than "I think that..." or "I heard..." or "I believe."

Roger
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Old 09-16-2016, 01:29 PM   #80
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Roger - I THINK that was a great post, but I have no facts to back up that assessment. 😳😀
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Old 09-16-2016, 02:09 PM   #81
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Roger, that un-hitched experience you had makes me consider a "break-away" link in my safety-chains.

Are you familiar with the Tuson Anti-Sway trailer braking system? and if so,...what are your impressions of it versus other types (such as friction devices, and bars.)?
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Old 09-16-2016, 02:40 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxite View Post
Roger, that un-hitched experience you had makes me consider a "break-away" link in my safety-chains.

Are you familiar with the Tuson Anti-Sway trailer braking system? and if so,...what are your impressions of it versus other types (such as friction devices, and bars.)?
The safety chains are on there to do exactly what mine did... one of the two chains held, and I was able to safely stop the entire rig without any collisions. Had there been a "break away" link, I'd have lost the trailer. That by itself wouldn't have been a big deal, but I'd have lost it into someone else's vehicle... THAT would have been a catastrophe. No, just keep your solid chains in place and let them do their job for you when you need them.

And I'm sorry... I'm a dinosaur. I have to confess that I don't know anything about the computerized anti-sway controls. The concept is a good one, I think... but I have no experience to share in the real world.

I've used a Reese Dual Cam for nearly 30 years with great success... and learned a great deal about hitches and how important proper hitch setup is from them. However, my last hitch was an Andersen that I used on an MPG 19' trailer behind a Toyota FJ Cruiser for probably 15,000 miles or so over three years.

The Andersen, IMHO, is a brilliant design... and is light-years ahead of every other hitch on the market. And no, I don't own any Andersen stock or have any association with them in any way. It's just a good product that is simple, weighs a third of what a Reese setup weights, is clean, and just does a superb job at what its designed for.
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Old 09-16-2016, 03:56 PM   #83
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Hi All,

I have a 2004 VW Touareg V10 TDI towing a Flying Cloud 30'. The TV is rated at 7,770 LB's I have the hitch reinforced with a 3"3" tubing to the frame between the back wheels. I use an Equalizer 4 point hitch and the TV has air suspension. I have dragged my baby all over the US and Canada over the last two year. Up down the Rockies, into the Tetons and many other mountain ranges. Once, before I realize I had 3 settings on my brake controller, I white knuckled down a mountain into Jackson Hole. I have had deer jump out of nowhere and did extremely evasive maneuvers, forgetting in that instant I was towing, without incident. I know I am pushing the "stated" capabilities of the vehicle but it feels like one uint when I am coupled to her. Thank goodness no one was hurt!!
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Old 09-16-2016, 04:18 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerrickB View Post
Question on insurance (I'm fairly new to ownership of our 2011 25' Flying Cloud). When I signed up for our policy through USAA, I didn't have much success with getting the full value insured. (Based on what I paid for the trailer).

Any suggestions?
Welcome to the forum, Derrick! You may have better exposure posting a new message in the Insurance sub-forum:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f351/

and you might find an existing thread listed there (check the first few pages IMO) by a similar topic name.

In particular, the following threads look as if they may be helpful:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f351...es-117618.html
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f351...ge-149172.html


Good luck!

Peter
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