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Old 09-10-2016, 08:50 PM   #57
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FWIW, a typical sleeper truck tractor towing a semi trailer weighs about 20,000 pounds with a typical GCVW of about 80,000 pounds.

While a loaded semi trailer bears a good part of the trailer weight on the back wheels, a TT is not typically heavier than its trailer.


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Old 09-10-2016, 09:20 PM   #58
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I need to rant ... Not due to anything anyone necessarily said in this particular thread, but just due to general observations/patterns.

This is definitely an awesome place for information once you get past the sarcasm and fiercely defended opinions of "mine is bigger than yours" even when "smaller" is regarded as "bigger" ... Or vice versa.

I do wish we can all respect that we're all well-enough informed to make the decisions we make about our set-ups without the need to bash on those who don't share our same opinions. It pains me to see that members get upset because of the uncessary conflict. We're all here because we share a common interest and we should further the goal of what we have in common without inciting the tone of "mine is better than yours," or "your sucks because it's not like mine." I'm frankly more concerned about those who tow (anything) without the interest to research general safety. Case in point: 20 years ago, we had a new 1994(?) Toyota 4-Runner and without doing any research, bought a new 1995(?) Coleman Avalon pop-up camper. It was a big and heavy pop-up and we liked it a lot except when the wind blew and the fabric sounded like a freight train. In Albuquerque at the time, we hitched-up to the bumper without anti-sway or weight distribution (or knowledge of such "unnecessary" products). The back-end sagged somewhat and I hit the highways, regularly interstates and two-lane divided state highways/routes at 75-80mph. I was an immature ass and put my wife and others at risk due to my gross negligence. Routinely, the trailer "violently wiggled" from side-to-side ... (my term because I didn't know any better and because that's what I assumed all trailers did). I knew to hit the brake controller to straighten her out whenever that happened. I never once, in the ~5 years I had her, lubed the axels, or checked the brakes, or checked the tires, or even the tire pressure--not on the camper and not even on the TV. I just hitched and ran after ensuring the cooler had plenty of ice on the beer. I may be exaggerating just a little for effect, but the point is, I wasn't as remotely concerned about safety as I am today.

And we all see many others on the road every single day, that clearly know nothing about weight distribution, loading, TV capacity, or the safety practices so thoroughly covered throughout the many wonderful threads on this forum and other forums. Those are the people that scare me. Those are the people I am most concerned for. As well, I am concerned about our families that share the roads. I'm stepping off of my soapbox... But just hoping to contribute to the discussion and awareness of safety ... And remind everyone to try to be civil ... We all share the same passion...
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Old 09-11-2016, 12:31 AM   #59
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The Lexus GX470 is an excellent vehicle, and very capable of towing a 19’ AS. We were seriously considering getting a GX, and researched it extensively. It is one of the most pleasant driving vehicles in its class. Our main concern was that we would find a trailer exceeding its 6500 lb tow capacity, which ultimately came true.

It’s true that the Lexus LX470/570 is identical to the Toyota Land Cruiser excepting a couple bits of chrome. But contrary to popular belief, the GX470/460 is NOT the same vehicle as the Toyota 4Runner. The 4Runner is a Tacoma with rear seats. The GX is a mini Land Cruiser (“Land Cruiser Prado”). They are mostly the same size, but are not the same vehicle. The ride is different, handling is different, the interior is different, seating is different especially the layout of the 3rd row (if you can find a 4Runner with a 3rd row). The GX has always had a V8, while the Toyota only offered it as an option for about 5 years. But if you can find a properly equipped 4Runner, it has a towing capacity of 7300 lbs, which is 800 lbs more than the GX ever offered. But it was so hard to find a 4Runner with V8, 3rd row, and towing package, that we gave up and moved to a Sequoia.

And to quote the immortal words of Desi Arnaz, “TRAILER BRAKES FIRST!!! TRAILER BRAKES FIRST!!!”
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Old 09-11-2016, 06:45 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Morgan View Post
FWIW, a typical sleeper truck tractor towing a semi trailer weighs about 20,000 pounds with a typical GCVW of about 80,000 pounds.

While a loaded semi trailer bears a good part of the trailer weight on the back wheels, a TT is not typically heavier than its trailer.


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Mr Morgan you should comparing a truck and pup trailer, not the semi (5 th wheel) as they are different, as the truck and pup trailer uses a tongue and pintal hitch...my 4 axle truck empty is 27500 and the 3 axle trailer is 12500, loaded 55500 and 43500 max legal load, drives like a dream...empty truck and loaded trailer ,not good as the trailer is in control, above 45 mph , scarey...
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Old 09-11-2016, 09:08 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Alluminati View Post
The Lexus GX470 is an excellent vehicle, and very capable of towing a 19’ AS. We were seriously considering getting a GX, and researched it extensively. It is one of the most pleasant driving vehicles in its class. Our main concern was that we would find a trailer exceeding its 6500 lb tow capacity, which ultimately came true.

It’s true that the Lexus LX470/570 is identical to the Toyota Land Cruiser excepting a couple bits of chrome. But contrary to popular belief, the GX470/460 is NOT the same vehicle as the Toyota 4Runner. The 4Runner is a Tacoma with rear seats. The GX is a mini Land Cruiser (“Land Cruiser Prado”). They are mostly the same size, but are not the same vehicle. The ride is different, handling is different, the interior is different, seating is different especially the layout of the 3rd row (if you can find a 4Runner with a 3rd row). The GX has always had a V8, while the Toyota only offered it as an option for about 5 years. But if you can find a properly equipped 4Runner, it has a towing capacity of 7300 lbs, which is 800 lbs more than the GX ever offered. But it was so hard to find a 4Runner with V8, 3rd row, and towing package, that we gave up and moved to a Sequoia.

And to quote the immortal words of Desi Arnaz, “TRAILER BRAKES FIRST!!! TRAILER BRAKES FIRST!!!”
While the 4Runner started out many years ago as the Toyota pickup (wasn't a Tacoma yet) with seats in the bed and a fiberglass top, it is completely different from the Tacoma. The 4Runner and the GX470 share the same frame and are assembled on the same line in Japan. Tacomas are made in Texas and Baja California. The Tacoma has never had a V8 but does have a longer wheel base. Not all 4Runners had the 3rd row option, the SE model doesn't, but came standard with the X-REAS suspension, an option on the LTD (not sure if it was available on the SR5). The 3rd row was offered as being for children, there wasn't enough height for adults. The GX470 offered a slightly higher roof line and a swing out rear door. The V8 was offered from 2003 to mid 2007. In 2004 the V8 was the largest offered in the Toyota line, developing more HP and torque than any of the others, even of the 4.7L size. The V8 was cast iron with the full time 4WD sealed (no dipstick) transmission while the V6 was aluminum with the old style 4WD transmission.

The suspension is quite good, not 'squishy' as someone here put it, but not harsh. I pull my 23' in all types of conditions and the Toyota performs very well. Towing capacity for the V8, full time 4WD is 7,000, 2WD is 7,300.

Since mid 2007 the 4Runner has been gutted, IMO. Current capacity is only 4,700 lbs. and only a V6. The best year was 2004 with the V8 and the 23 gallon gas tank. Subsequent years had a smaller tank. I get offers for mine 2-3 times a year . If I was looking for a Toyota SUV today, I agree go with the Sequoia.

In addition to the TV wheel base, the wheel base of the trailer is equally important. The closer the wheels are to the TV, the more possibility of sway.
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Old 09-11-2016, 12:39 PM   #62
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So, is the takeaway from this and another thread I recall that fore-and-aft weight distribution in a single axle trailer far more critical than in a tandem or triple axle trailer?
That would seem to be the case.
Sure; pulling your 19-foot Bambi with an Abrams using a pivot projection point hitch will compensate for a multitude of sins. But being aware of the particular needs of your trailer would seem like a more practical idea. I have no experience pulling a single axle trailer, but that seems the obvious question to me. With my FC 27, it seems like I can be pretty indifferent to the fill state of my tanks or interior loading with respect to their effect on towing behavior. Maybe not the case with a short, single axle trailer.
That said, I probably would not have a custom-made rear bumper carrier for my Honda generator, like I saw on someone's box trailer in Utah. That might be pushing my luck in multiple respects. 😎
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Old 09-11-2016, 03:52 PM   #63
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... Today's vehicles are much more prone to rollovers and trucks and SUVs are the worst...

I've got to disagree. Today's motor vehicles are safer than ever. Many have some form of stability control, ABS, front and side airbags, crush zones, back-up cameras, etc.

Thanks to this technology many people survive crashes than in the old days would have been fatal, or at the very least require lengthy rehabilitation.


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Old 09-11-2016, 04:16 PM   #64
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I've got to disagree. Today's motor vehicles are safer than ever. Many have some form of stability control, ABS, front and side airbags, crush zones, back-up cameras, etc.

Thanks to this technology many people survive crashes than in the old days would have been fatal, or at the very least require lengthy rehabilitation.


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They may be safer but high CG vehicles are more prone to roll. It's physics, not my opinion. As I said, I've got pictures.

More trucks and SUVs are on the road than ever. They are safe but we still have almost 500 fatalities this year in Michigan alone. We're making up for the safety advances by driving faster and more aggressively.
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Old 09-11-2016, 05:44 PM   #65
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I'd be willing to wager big money that nobody here has any idea how the hitch was attached or adjusted.

Today, on the way back home from a lovely long camping weekend we saw a perfectly adequate 1/2 truck pulling a small SOB trailer. Sadly, their hitch adjustment was hideous. Front of the truck was high, back was low, trailer was nose down, headlights would have been aimed somewhere at Saturn if they had been on. Oddly, we couldn't see this from behind. It was towing straight and true under today's ideal conditions (beautiful sunny afternoon, comfortable temps, very little wind). However as we passed, it became perfectly obvious that at any less than perfect moment the whole thing could go backside over teakettle...just one sudden correction in steering, one unfortunate gust of wind, one bee on the windshield, etc.

In a post-crash scene, we can't see any of that. All we see is bent metal and prayers for the safety of the driver and occupants. So, nobody here knows what actually caused the trailer to fishtail and the rig to roll. It could be any one of more than a dozen different things, very few of which can be deduced from post-crash pictures and arm-chair quarterbacking.

If pretending it can't happen to you because of a special hitch or some other preparations helps you feel better, that's fine.

Like most folks, we do our very best to reduce our risks by properly adjusting / weighing everything and running 16" wheels on our trailer. Then we say our prayers, hoping the wrong butterfly somewhere doesn't flap its wings in our direction and visit upon us a first-person experience of chaos theory.

Happy speculating!
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Old 09-11-2016, 05:53 PM   #66
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I've owned a few pickup trucks.
My first was a 1951 3/4 ton Ford bought second hand from the US Dept of Agriculture. It drove like an in-line, 6 cylinder brick with solid-beam axles front and rear mounted on leaf springs front and rear.
Second truck was a 1960 Ford, bought from another US Air Force auction. It drove much better, but still very clumsy.
Third was a 1976 F-150, which was a huge improvement with their "Twin I-Beam" front axle. (Believing my self clever and thinking it'd be easier to maintain in a long-term ownership-period, I stoopidly ordered the truck with 3-speed on the column, 360 V8, power-brakes but manual steering, manual window cranks, and rubber flooring.) I dumped it on another fool asap when I realized manual trannys are NOT the best for towing and certainly not for parallel parking with manual steering!
Next was a 1978 F-150 Lariat (I was a smarter buyer after trying to park the '76 above), fully-loaded. THAT was a nice truck!
About the same time I inherited a 1976 GMC 1-ton specifically set-up for the farm/trailer-towing. It was no better than any of the others (and developed serious body-rust-out issues even tho' it was never on salted roads and left the dealer with that silly anti-rust treatment GM sold for an add-on, drilled-holes and sprayed-into body panels....what a sorry answer, which if anyone thought about it, was actually an admission by GM they had a serious corrosion issue, not to mention the gas-tank-explosions suffered in that series.)
Despite it's trailer-towing claims, it's suspension had serious roll and sway issues, and it's brakes were inadequate.
I pulled various trailers with each of those trucks. I absolutely disagree that the p/u trucks prior to 2000 were better trucks than those today, and the trucks built after 2010 are FAR AWAY BETTER than any of the earlier years due to the added protections of roll-over, side air bags, improved and better-matched anti-skid braking, and electronic stability controls, better visibility and better lighting. There is simply NO WAY those earlier trucks can compare with modern vehicles.
Newer vehicles are far away better.

But,.. can anyone demonstrate that "towing" certifications do anything other than indicate the weights the vehicle can accelerate and stop within certain time-and-distances at rated GCVW's? Do ANY of the mfr's claim their towing-rating tests have ANYTHING to do with the vehicle ability to deal with SWAYING trailers at the max rated? And do any of those so-called tests consider anything other than a calm day and dry concrete? I doubt it, but would love it if someone here was expert on such certifications to chime in.
Therefore, I don't believe it's comprehensive to say that just because your Asian-SUV is rated to tow up to a certain weight trailer... that it is automatically wise to do so. There are simply too many variables involved to allow a glance at TV ratings vs trailer gross weight and decide the combination is a safe one, especially when driver-competence and weather is thrown into the mix.
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Old 09-11-2016, 07:30 PM   #67
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Trucks a decade or so ago were far more usable, comfortable, aerodynamic, etc. - & they looked better too IMHO. It's absolutely ridiculous market survey driven design/engineering, which hurts ride, mpg, comfort, usability & even visibility from the cab in 360 degrees!
///////
Totally agree about the height of the current trucks - way too high and unusable. My sister has a stock 4x4 2010 F150 and the bed is very deep, actually harder to reach things than my out of the bed of my Dodge 2500. I sold my 1986 Jeep J20 to a family member - loved the truck. When the tailgate was down the height is just above the knees - easy to load/unload stuff. The old truck had great prowess offload even being so low to the ground.
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Old 09-11-2016, 08:05 PM   #68
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But,.. can anyone demonstrate that "towing" certifications do anything other than indicate the weights the vehicle can accelerate and stop within certain time-and-distances at rated GCVW's? Do ANY of the mfr's claim their towing-rating tests have ANYTHING to do with the vehicle ability to deal with SWAYING trailers at the max rated?
Excerpt from Toyota Tacoma owners' manual:

"Trailer Sway Control (vehicles with towing hitch and 7 pin connector)
Helps the driver to control trailer sway by selectively applying brake pressure for individual wheels and reducing engine torque when trailer sway is detected."

My Sequoia has TSC.

You can read more here:
http://www.ttguide.net/driving_assist_systems-74.html
http://www.tlacruiser.com/driving_as...ystems-56.html
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Old 09-11-2016, 09:00 PM   #69
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So, is the takeaway from this and another thread I recall that fore-and-aft weight distribution in a single axle trailer far more critical than in a tandem or triple axle trailer?
That would seem to be the case.
Far more critical? No. Multiple axles do provide some sway resistance (because the tandem axle wants to roll in a straight line). But a better statement would be that weight distribution is critical, period.

The center of mass needs to be forward of the trailer axle(s) for stability; the rule of thumb is that the tongue weight should be between 10 and 20% of the trailer weight.

It might be interesting to measure the tongue weight of your trailer with various tank fill levels. I would bet that you are within the 10-20% range regardless of the tank status. But the more forward the center of mass the better for sway control. I try to travel with my fresh water tank (forward) at least half full. Traveling with the waste tanks (aft) nearly empty is best, but not always possible, depending on the availability of a dump station.

Quote:
That said, I probably would not have a custom-made rear bumper carrier for my Honda generator, like I saw on someone's box trailer in Utah. That might be pushing my luck in multiple respects. 😎
You are absolutely right that hanging weight on the aft end of the trailer is pushing one's luck "in multiple respects".

First, adding weight to the aft end of the trailer moves the center of mass aft, which is bad, and

Second, adding weight at either end of the trailer increases its moment of inertia about the axle in the yaw axis, which adversely affects sway stability.
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Old 09-11-2016, 11:54 PM   #70
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They may be safer but high CG vehicles are more prone to roll. It's physics, not my opinion. As I said, I've got pictures.



More trucks and SUVs are on the road than ever. They are safe but we still have almost 500 fatalities this year in Michigan alone. We're making up for the safety advances by driving faster and more aggressively.

I can't disagree with you there.


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