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Old 05-08-2019, 03:08 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by jeffmc306 View Post
Cru-in, welcome to the forums!

We were in a similar situation as you last year. We had a VW Touareg TDI and purchased a FC23FBQ because it had the lowest publish tongue weight 471#. That actually turned out to be closer to 700#. We used a Blue Ox SwayPro with 1000# bars to keep the weight down (weighs less than the Hensley). That turned out to be a great combination of TV and trailer.

While we loved the "Airstream experience", we found the U-shaped dinette of the FC23FBQ a little cramped. We just picked up a 27' Globetrotter FBT and a 2019 Ram 1500 Laramie Sport. It's right on the edge of being over the rear axle max of 4100# when scaled. The FC25's have a slightly higher tongue weight (ours is a little over 1000# measured).

Power and towing is fine with the 3.92 axle but payload is the issue as others have noted.

Here's another post from a related thread of another Ram owner's experience.
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...ml#post2239153

Good luck with your quest!
Thanks for the response.

1) Wow! Are you saying your TW (with only batteries and propane) was 700 vice the 471 Airstream advertises? Or was the 700 fully loaded?

2) Yes the 25 do have higher TWs. That is why we are only interested in the 25RB. The Rear Bedroom and storage limits the loaded TW to about 800 pounds.

3) Thanks tons for the link. I read it all. It was very interesting.

Thanks Again
Dan
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Old 05-08-2019, 03:37 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by cru-in View Post
I will also be replacing the AGM batteries with lithium... Further reducing the tw..
You guys do realize that tongue weight is a static measurement? You can move stuff around all you want but when you brake there’s a lot more Load on the tongue.
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Old 05-08-2019, 03:56 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Countryboy59 View Post
You guys do realize that tongue weight is a static measurement? You can move stuff around all you want but when you brake there’s a lot more Load on the tongue.
That is an interesting point. What happens to the rig's weight distribution when the brakes are applied? The front of the trailer will tend to dive down as you said. But at the same time the tow vehicle dives down in the front and goes up in the back.
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Old 05-08-2019, 11:08 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by out of sight View Post
That is an interesting point. What happens to the rig's weight distribution when the brakes are applied? The front of the trailer will tend to dive down as you said. But at the same time the tow vehicle dives down in the front and goes up in the back.
Maybe. I’m just saying all the juggling, moving the bicycles, barbecue and batteries around to reduce a static load may be missing the point. Load from the trailer diving down + load from rear of the truck going up are both added to the hitch. Use common sense. Balancing a trailer to meet an undersized vehicle’s load limit may not be smart.
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Old 05-09-2019, 05:36 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by cru-in View Post
Thanks for the response.

1) Wow! Are you saying your TW (with only batteries and propane) was 700 vice the 471 Airstream advertises? Or was the 700 fully loaded?

Dan
700 was likely the TW once they put all their stuff in the AS.

The published TW from AS is dry weight... as others have mentioned, that really isn't a good number to base your TV.

AS seem to use close to a 12-13% TW value.. find the GVWR of the AS you want and then calculate the TW, then pair up an appropriate TV.

My 2 cents...
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Old 05-09-2019, 05:42 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Countryboy59 View Post
Maybe. I’m just saying all the juggling, moving the bicycles, barbecue and batteries around to reduce a static load may be missing the point. Load from the trailer diving down + load from rear of the truck going up are both added to the hitch. Use common sense. Balancing a trailer to meet an undersized vehicle’s load limit may not be smart.
Agree. Trailer loading should be focused on maintaining tongue weight between 10-15% of trailer weight...for stability. That is most important.

OP, are you determined to keep your present tow vehicle? You have to decide what your priority is: choice of AS or choice of truck? If you’re open to trading up on the truck, then pick the AS you want then take your truck/trailer to the scales (set up for camping. Bring wife, dogs bikes,etc). Focus on the bottom line: GVWR and axle ratings. If you’re good there and feel like the rig handles well, you’re all set. If you’re not comfortable, then go with a 3/4 ton for your peace of mind.
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Old 05-09-2019, 05:57 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cru-in View Post
Thanks for the response.

1) Wow! Are you saying your TW (with only batteries and propane) was 700 vice the 471 Airstream advertises? Or was the 700 fully loaded?

2) Yes the 25 do have higher TWs. That is why we are only interested in the 25RB. The Rear Bedroom and storage limits the loaded TW to about 800 pounds.

3) Thanks tons for the link. I read it all. It was very interesting.

Thanks Again
Dan
Dan, the 700 was loaded with our gear but not packed to the max.

1) We experienced a severe sway incident the first time out. The dealer had spec'd 550# bars on the Blue Ox. When we returned I did the bathroom scale exercise and discovered the actual weight. I called Blue Ox who recommended 1000# bars (dealer swapped them out NC). The larger bars made all the difference and give you more range of adjustment.

2) Good idea on the 25RB to keep the tongue weight in check but as others have stated, "actual" tongue weights are higher. We considered the FC25RB before the 23' but changed our minds due to the tongue weight. In hindsight, I wish we had gone with the 25' because the floor plan offers more space to relax. Moot point now with the 27' GT :-)


The other "lesson learned" for me was to make sure your brake controller is dialed in before hitting the Interstate. *IF* you experience sway, manually engage the trailer brakes. If your controller isn't set correctly (enough action that you feel the trailer pulling against the TV) this won't work and your vehicle is doing most of the braking. Test on a back road with no traffic until you're satisfied.
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Old 05-09-2019, 07:23 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by jeffmc306 View Post
We considered the FC25RB before the 23' but changed our minds due to the tongue weight. In hindsight, I wish we had gone with the 25' because the floor plan offers more space to relax.
This is an excellent point, which I learned the hard way. If you compromise your trailer choice based on the tow vehicle, then you will most likely be upsizing both in the near future.
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Old 05-09-2019, 09:02 AM   #29
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1st thanks all for the excellent info, thoughts and opinions.

I probably should have mentioned, I am an engineer and I lead aircraft modification projects. As such, I am a stickler about weights and balance. I had done a good bit of figuring before posting the OP. Here is the cliff notes version:

Truck
*1310 Pounds of available payload
* With hemi and 3.93 rear, truck rated to tow 10K+ pounds
* Truck has a 6' 6" bed and foot longer weelbase than the (much more common) short bed.
*We have towed trailed for decades and travel light. Usually we just have DW, Dog, and I in the truck.
*I will (as before) use a Hensley Hitch

25RB
*chosen because we liked the layout and it has rear storage as well as hot water heater in the rear.
* There are 5 or so folks reporting fully loaded 25RB imparting about 800 pounds to Truck
*25RB list at 5600 pounds with batteries and propane.
*Adding 400 pounds for solar, window awnings, etc., I considered the base to be 6000 pounds.
* adding our 500 pounds of stuff, The on the road weight would be about 6500+/- pounds
* Loading to keep the TW at 800 pounds would then yield about 12.3% of trailer weight at TW.
*even if the base if 500 pounds heavier than calculated, I have a 11.5% TW.
* 11% to 12% TW is a very good number for the Hensley.


with the 800 pounds of weight imparted to the truck, we would have 500 pounds for DW, Dog, and I. Leaving about 150 pounds of payload to spare.

I would need to assure I am under the individual axle ratings. This weekend I will get the actual axle eights from a CAT scale. Having the longer bed/wheel-base (longer moment arm from the heavy parts) should help with a lower rear dry axle weight. However, I will know the actual this weekend.

I am a bit anal and weight my rigs lots for the first several runs. Last trailer, I measured TW every time we hitched up. Just made it part of my process.

Dan
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Old 05-09-2019, 09:07 AM   #30
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1st thanks all for the excellent info, thoughts and opinions.

I probably should have mentioned, I am an engineer and I lead aircraft modification projects. As such, I am a stickler about weights and balance. I had done a good bit of figuring before posting the OP. Here is the cliff notes version:

Truck
*1310 Pounds of available payload
* With hemi and 3.93 rear, truck rated to tow 10K+ pounds
* Truck has a 6' 6" bed and foot longer weelbase than the (much more common) short bed.
*We have towed trailers for decades and we travel light. Usually we just have DW, Dog, and I in the truck. with about 500 pounds in the trailer.
*I will (as before) use a Hensley Hitch

25RB
*chosen because we liked the layout, the initial weight calcs work, and it has rear storage as well as hot water heater in the rear (helping to reduce TW.
* There are 5 or so folks reporting fully loaded 25RB imparting about 800 pounds to Truck. the highest I have seen is 880.
*25RB list at 5600 pounds with batteries and propane.
*Adding 400 pounds for solar, window awnings, etc., I considered the base to be 6000 pounds.
* adding our 500 pounds of stuff, The on the road weight would be about 6500+/- pounds
* Loading to keep the TW at 800 pounds would then yield about 12.3% of trailer weight at TW.
*even if the trailer is 500 pounds heavier than calculated, I have a 11.5% TW.
* 11% to 12% TW is a very good number for the Hensley.


with the 800 pounds of weight imparted to the truck, we would have 500 pounds for DW, Dog, and I. Leaving about 150 pounds of payload to spare.

I would need to assure I am under the individual axle ratings. This weekend I will get the actual axle weights from a CAT scale. Having the longer bed/wheel-base (longer moment arm from the heavy parts) should help with a lower rear dry axle weight. However, I will know the actual this weekend.

I am a bit anal and weight my rigs lots for the first several runs. Last trailer, I measured TW every time we hitched up. Just made it part of my process. I like to know the whole system is in balance.
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Old 05-09-2019, 09:43 AM   #31
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I've towed a 25 rear twin with a half ton ford, then with a 3/4 ton ford.

I'll take the 3/4 ton ford any day of the week. Comfort factor went WAY UP!

Now tow a 30 foot rear twin with the 3/4 ton ford.

3,111 pounds payload.

Lastly, it ain't always a question of whether it can pull it, the more important question for me is, can it stop it?
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Old 05-09-2019, 09:54 AM   #32
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I've towed a 25 rear twin with a half ton ford, then with a 3/4 ton ford.

I'll take the 3/4 ton ford any day of the week. Comfort factor went WAY UP!

Now tow a 30 foot rear twin with the 3/4 ton ford.

3,111 pounds payload.

Lastly, it ain't always a question of whether it can pull it, the more important question for me is, can it stop it?
Having towed for 10 years with a F250, I have no doubt a the 3/4 would be a much more comfortable ride.

You often hear braking mentioned in these discussions. Braking is a function of total weight (GCVWR). My Ram has a GCVWR of greater about 18K pounds. I will be operating at about 14K pounds. less than 80% of the GCVWR.

Please do not interpret this as trying to argue that a 250/2500 would not be better, it absolutely would be.

An interesting note is the new Ram has the largest brakes on any 1/2 ton.
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Old 05-09-2019, 10:25 AM   #33
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2 additional points to consider. 1. The weight of your Hensley hitch also needs to be factored into the TW equation. As you know, they are heavy. 2. Despite the brochures, the loaded hitch weight of a 25 FB or RB can easily reach 900lb. Together with the weight of your Hensley, you are getting awfully close to your max cargo weight rating before you and the better half have even got on board.

Running at, or near the max, it not advisable. As long as everything is going according to plan, you will get away with it all day long. But, where is the cushion when things get dicey and you need to make some sort of emergency maneuver, brake hard, or descend a 2 mile, 7-8 degree hill and the trucks brakes are smoking long before the bottom.

It is not the normal driving circumstances you should be sizing your tow vehicle, it is when things go sideways that you need to consider. Safety, just sayin.
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Old 05-09-2019, 10:26 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by majorairhead View Post
I've towed a 25 rear twin with a half ton ford, then with a 3/4 ton ford.

I'll take the 3/4 ton ford any day of the week. Comfort factor went WAY UP!

Now tow a 30 foot rear twin with the 3/4 ton ford.

3,111 pounds payload.

Lastly, it ain't always a question of whether it can pull it, the more important question for me is, can it stop it?
Did you measure the weight transferred to the F150 with the WDH engaged and the trailer all packed up?
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Old 05-09-2019, 04:48 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by cru-in View Post
1st thanks all for the excellent info, thoughts and opinions.

I probably should have mentioned, I am an engineer and I lead aircraft modification projects.
PAX River?
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Old 05-09-2019, 05:44 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by thewarden View Post
2 additional points to consider. 1. The weight of your Hensley hitch also needs to be factored into the TW equation. As you know, they are heavy. 2. Despite the brochures, the loaded hitch weight of a 25 FB or RB can easily reach 900lb. Together with the weight of your Hensley, you are getting awfully close to your max cargo weight rating before you and the better half have even got on board.

Running at, or near the max, it not advisable. As long as everything is going according to plan, you will get away with it all day long. But, where is the cushion when things get dicey and you need to make some sort of emergency maneuver, brake hard, or descend a 2 mile, 7-8 degree hill and the trucks brakes are smoking long before the bottom.

It is not the normal driving circumstances you should be sizing your tow vehicle, it is when things go sideways that you need to consider. Safety, just sayin.
Thanks for the inputs.

I should have been more explicit. The weight of the hensley is figured in there. I assumed it transferred only the amount of its own weight to the TT axles. Post have shown that the hensley imparts about 125 to 150 pounds to the TV (depending on axle geometry. So the number is conservative. I am only assuming it is transfering 125 to 150 pounds to the TT axles. Plus several of the posts showing CAT scale verified numbers for 25 RBs used a hensley and found about 800 pounds transfered to the TV.

Could you point me to the 25Rb with 900 plus pound hitch weights? I have searched and searched and all the ones I can find on the forum are in the 800 pound range. Many a 25FB is up there. But evvery number I find for the 25RB is around 800 pounds.

I find your TV in your pict interesting.

Can you share what it is?

I would also be interested in what your CAT scale measured weights are versus the TV specs (payload, GCVW, Max axle loads, etc.) when towing your 2016 27 foot. With its FB and storage, I suspect it is like the other FBs and the loaded TW plus hitch is well in excess of 1000 pounds. .

Thanks
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Old 05-09-2019, 08:59 PM   #37
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Our experience: 2019 Ram 1500 + 27FB, 18,000 miles full time RVing

We love our 2019 Ram 1500 Limited, and we tow our 27FB with it. We have put on over 18,000 miles towing on this combination so far, as we started full timing in September 2018. The eTorque Hemi provides loads of power, and we can go as fast as wish up grades - but normally we keep it at 55-60mph. On grades down - even 8% ones - we just set cruise on the truck to our desired speed, and the 8 speed transmission downshifts as necessary to keep us at that speed. We never touch the brakes, which is a big relief.

Our door listed payload is 1267#, and I do wish it was more, maybe just to make me feel better. CAT scales show I am over a little on weight. Attached are scans of our CAT scale slips and a worksheet I use to try to figure out where I am at. We weighed the Ram alone, with the 27FB attached and no weight distribution, and with weight distribution engaged on the 10th link. The worksheet is my attempt to sort things out.

FYI, we have 700W of solar on the roof, and replaced the original batteries with 400Ah lithium under the bed. We also have installed an aluminum rolling bed cover that is strong enough to support 500lbs.

For a hitch, we are using a BlueOx, but with 1500# bars. I initially thought I would need only 1000# bars, but the dealer recommended the 1500#. I am glad I have them, as I need to transfer a lot of weight via wd. The truck drives great with everything dialed in (10th link), so I am pretty satisfied with the setup.

In summary, we think the new Ram 1500 makes a great TV for up to a 27FB from our experience. The truck seems very capable to tow this size trailer, and we never had any "white knuckle moments." Plus, when not attached, it drives like a luxury SUV, but we still have the bed (5'7") for storage.

I completely understand the reasons to upgrade to a 2500. We may do so ourselves someday. However, I am posting this to let you and others know that the new Ram 1500 can do the job well, and seems to be quite safe and sturdy. Good luck!
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Old 05-10-2019, 05:56 AM   #38
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If the trailer is set up with the hitch high in the front then under braking the tw weight could lighten. A little low in the front is sometimes better.
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Old 05-10-2019, 07:33 AM   #39
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Some More

Just read your post this morning and here is some more stuff for your consideration.

We travel with a 2019 FC FB twin and a 2019 Ram 1500 2 WD Quad cab equipped with the 5.7 etorque, tow package and 3.93 gears. TV was selected because of being a 4 door, would fit in our garage, is our only vehicle and is used daily and with a Propride setup for towing.

We have traveled almost 4K miles with this combo, including a trip thru the Smokies and are very pleased with the this set up especially with the down hill engine/trans braking effect. (7% grade)

Now here are some numbers to take a look at and maybe compare with what you have in mind.

As a side observation, our previous TT was a FC 23FB pulled with a V6 Durango. The 23 just was not working out for us as to comfort, use, and many other reasons. In our opinion the 25 is a significant improvement is use and enjoyment.

Best of luck with whatever way you go and just enjoy life.
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Old 05-10-2019, 08:41 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by cru-in View Post
Thanks for the inputs.

I should have been more explicit. The weight of the hensley is figured in there. I assumed it transferred only the amount of its own weight to the TT axles. Post have shown that the hensley imparts about 125 to 150 pounds to the TV (depending on axle geometry. So the number is conservative. I am only assuming it is transfering 125 to 150 pounds to the TT axles. Plus several of the posts showing CAT scale verified numbers for 25 RBs used a hensley and found about 800 pounds transfered to the TV.

Could you point me to the 25Rb with 900 plus pound hitch weights? I have searched and searched and all the ones I can find on the forum are in the 800 pound range. Many a 25FB is up there. But evvery number I find for the 25RB is around 800 pounds.

I find your TV in your pict interesting.

Can you share what it is?

I would also be interested in what your CAT scale measured weights are versus the TV specs (payload, GCVW, Max axle loads, etc.) when towing your 2016 27 foot. With its FB and storage, I suspect it is like the other FBs and the loaded TW plus hitch is well in excess of 1000 pounds. .

Thanks
Unfortunately I do not have my weights handy. However, when I crank up my WD bars to return all the weight to the front axles, which is where towing feels the most stable and planted, I am within my cargo weight ratings and front and rear axle weight ratings. This also puts several hundred lbs back on the trailer axles as well.

Interestingly, the published hitch weight of the 25 RB is higher than the 25 FB, 886lbs vs 833lbs. The published hitch weight of the 27FB is actually less than the 25s, 770 lbs. Of course, real world numbers are quite different, and usually quite a bit more but its all relative.

I tend to travel as light as possible based on my tow vehicles weight capacities. I have upgraded 16" wheels and Michelin tires so I even forego the trailer spare tire to keep my tongue weight down. My loaded for camping TW is 835lbs as measured on a Sherline scale.

The vehicle in my avatar is a Porsche Cayenne Turbo. It is a fantastic tow vehicle, however the downside is the lack of cargo carrying capacity. As loaded above, it is very close to its cargo capacity and rear axle weight rating. If I want to take any of the serious camping stuff with us (bbq, lawn chairs, generator, etc), then we tow with the 3500 Denali duramax.
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