4Runner/25 FB Safari SE

[Ssm_001]

Greetings! After a few months of shopping travel trailers, we have landed at Airstream and can't seem to go back. It all started with shopping small teardrops for quick weekend getaways, moved on to Armadillos and the Happier Campier HC1, and the we finally graduated to the Bambi Sport 16, until we toured the Sport 22. I can't tell you how many times I've heard the 'buy your second AS first' advice, and it seems to make sense. So here is our situation:

We are early 40s, both have careers and will be travelling just the two of us plus our 40lb dog on occasion. Because we both work full time we will be spending most of the next 15-20 years doing short weekend trips within 300 or so kilometers of home in Ontario - which is primarily flat. We will likely do a 2 week or so trip out to the East coast in the summer each year but don't plan to do any really big trips until retirement. We will be 95% on serviced lots so will be travelling lightly for the most part - some clothes and supplies only. Water, groceries and such will often be sourced after camp is set up. We don't intend to bring company - this is for the two of us only - company can bring their own rig. So my quandary is this:

Getting back to the 'buying your second AS first' thing - I have fallen for a used 2007 Safari 25 FB SE with a proper bed, decent sized fridge, front and rear panoramas, vistas, recessed lighting etc etc. It is large enough to be our 'forever AS' and has enough of the AS niceties to keep the geek in me satisfied. It has just had the floor redone by Airstream as these apparently have an issue with leaking at the rear? Anyhow - the Safari 25 needs more that the 5k lb class 3 set-up that came with my 2006 4runner V6. Andy and his team at CamAm will be fabbing up a proper frame rail mounted hitch set-up, WDH, twin stabilizers, brake controller, trans cooler etc. I know there seems to be a contingent that believes anything short of an F150 is inappropriate, however there is another contingent that seem to have a pretty good grasp on engineering and handling dynamics that say an AS with a properly set-up TV/hitch assembly deems big dollar, huge trucks as irrelevant. I have read all manner of opinion on whether the 4runner/Taco family are worthy TVs. I prefer their more compact size and incredible durability and am willing to sacrifice some towability for a decent daily driver - if I was travelling mountain passes I might be singing a different song.

Many will say pulling a 25 around with a 4Runner is crazy. Andy/CanAm seem to think it will work just fine. I tend to think he knows what he is talking about. Anyone want to pipe in?

[brad1]

Oh boy. Here we go....
Let's keep it friendly and factual everyone.


Me, I'm preparing some popcorn.

[Ssm_001]

Haha. I'll see your popcorn and raise you the cooler full of splits sitting next to me on Eagle Beach, Aruba.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by Ssm_001

Greetings! After a few months of shopping travel trailers, we have landed at Airstream and can't seem to go back. It all started with shopping small teardrops for quick weekend getaways, moved on to Armadillos and the Happier Campier HC1, and the we finally graduated to the Bambi Sport 16, until we toured the Sport 22. I can't tell you how many times I've heard the 'buy your second AS first' advice, and it seems to make sense. So here is our situation:

We are early 40s, both have careers and will be travelling just the two of us plus our 40lb dog on occasion. Because we both work full time we will be spending most of the next 15-20 years doing short weekend trips within 300 or so kilometers of home in Ontario - which is primarily flat. We will likely do a 2 week or so trip out to the East coast in the summer each year but don't plan to do any really big trips until retirement. We will be 95% on serviced lots so will be travelling lightly for the most part - some clothes and supplies only. Water, groceries and such will often be sourced after camp is set up. We don't intend to bring company - this is for the two of us only - company can bring their own rig. So my quandary is this:

Getting back to the 'buying your second AS first' thing - I have fallen for a used 2007 Safari 25 FB SE with a proper bed, decent sized fridge, front and rear panoramas, vistas, recessed lighting etc etc. It is large enough to be our 'forever AS' and has enough of the AS niceties to keep the geek in me satisfied. It has just had the floor redone by Airstream as these apparently have an issue with leaking at the rear? Anyhow - the Safari 25 needs more that the 5k lb class 3 set-up that came with my 2006 4runner V6. Andy and his team at CamAm will be fabbing up a proper frame rail mounted hitch set-up, WDH, twin stabilizers, brake controller, trans cooler etc. I know there seems to be a contingent that believes anything short of an F150 is inappropriate, however there is another contingent that seem to have a pretty good grasp on engineering and handling dynamics that say an AS with a properly set-up TV/hitch assembly deems big dollar, huge trucks as irrelevant. I have read all manner of opinion on whether the 4runner/Taco family are worthy TVs. I prefer their more compact size and incredible durability and am willing to sacrifice some towability for a decent daily driver - if I was travelling mountain passes I might be singing a different song.

Many will say pulling a 25 around with a 4Runner is crazy. Andy/CanAm seem to think it will work just fine. I tend to think he knows what he is talking about. Anyone want to pipe in?

In the end, you really want to hear that your choice of a 4runner will work with the 25'; right? Because, there are lots of folks here (including me) who will agree a 4Runner likely can "pull" it, but that there are much safer, more capable vehicles, with more payload capacity, in case you will ever be bringing along more "stuff" to enjoy with your AS outings.

If your looking for justification either way, you need not ask the question and get everyone worked up...there are many, many threads on the Forum currently on this topic...usually a new one like yours, just pops up weekly sometimes 2 a week...just spend some time reading them and we all can keep our opinions and tempers to ourselves!

And your right; Andy likely can help you achieve your goals with just about any vehicle... So if that makes you feel safe...then go for it. You really don't need anyone's experience or advice.

[Ssm_001]

I'm really not looking for any justification, just an example or two of some real life experience with a similar set-up in similar conditions. I have studied the Airstream forums and the Toyota forums at great length - there seems to be much in the way of misinformation and confusion. My 4runner has 150k kms on it, and while it will last a long time, I suspect I will be upgrading before I retire and will consider a TV more effective at accommodating our longer distance travels at that time.

[Bill M.]

So the popcorn eaters will be happy.

I enjoy pulling my 25' with my 2007 Dodge Diesel 2500.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by Ssm_001

I'm really not looking for any justification, just an example or two of some real life experience with a similar set-up in similar conditions. I have studied the Airstream forums and the Toyota forums at great length - there seems to be much in the way of misinformation and confusion. My 4runner has 150k kms on it, and while it will last a long time, I suspect I will be upgrading before I retire and will consider a TV more effective at accommodating our longer distance travels at that time.

OK, so lets say for "grins" your AS 25' 2007 FB has a TW of 835, per the spec sheet...likely your at around 900lbs+ loaded with water and "things" inside? (Weighing on a truck scale is best to confirm.) What does your 4runner drivers door sticker say for "payload"? If your not inclined to get a better more capable TV, and want to use your existing vehicle....like I said, you can get lots of "encouragement and advice" here to use your 4runner...even though your likely over your vehicle max payload spec...maybe over by a lot... Guess it really depends on how comfortable you want to be while pulling your AS.

I know with my 3 different year, different configuration 25's, I started with a new 2008 Tahoe with my first 2006 Safari 25'...no payload and no power going up hills; so I upgraded to a newer 2011Tahoe that had 20more HP....same issue; drove it a year, then upgraded to F150echoboost, short bed supercrew 4x4. Great match for the 25'; bought a new 2012 25' next year and put 130K miles on the F150...loved it, but forgot to check the payload before purchase...I was always overloaded, and there were times I thought a lot about being overloaded by 400+ lbs. When I got my new 28', I also went up to the F250 diesel. I love this combo...

My point (at least for me) is "if" you have a choice, go with TV that can provide you peace of mind while towing, knowing your within mfg. specs including payload, if something should happen...

[Ssm_001]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

OK, so lets say for "grins" your AS 25' 2007 FB has a TW of 835, per the spec sheet...likely your at around 900lbs+ loaded with water and "things" inside? (Weighing on a truck scale is best to confirm.) What does your 4runner drivers door sticker say for "payload"? If your not inclined to get a better more capable TV, and want to use your existing vehicle....like I said, you can get lots of "encouragement and advice" here to use your 4runner...even though your likely over your vehicle max payload spec...maybe over by a lot... Guess it really depends on how comfortable you want to be while pulling your AS.

I know with my 3 different year, different configuration 25's, I started with a new 2008 Tahoe with my first 2006 Safari 25'...no payload and no power going up hills; so I upgraded to a newer 2011Tahoe that had 20more HP....same issue; drove it a year, then upgraded to F150echoboost, short bed supercrew 4x4. Great match for the 25'; bought a new 2012 25' next year and put 130K miles on the F150...loved it, but forgot to check the payload before purchase...I was always overloaded, and there were times I thought a lot about being overloaded by 400+ lbs. When I got my new 28', I also went up to the F250 diesel. I love this combo...

My point (at least for me) is "if" you have a choice, go with TV that can provide you peace of mind while towing, knowing your within mfg. specs including payload, if something should happen...

I do have a choice with the TV, however that choice comes at the expense of getting the AS of our dreams. It's a trade-off that will work and get us into the AS world without that nagging feeling that we will have to upgrade the AS one day. I won't ever go the pick-up truck route, but will hold out hopes for a diesel Bronco or import some variation of diesel Toyota to replace the 4runner when that day comes. Seems live axle, high center of gravity trucks aren't ideal though - perhaps a lightly used 2018 Volvo V90 XC will be the next order of tow vehicle for me 😉

[AlinCal]

Not sure what the terrain is like in Ontario but pulling a 25 in Ca with a v6 would not be fun, let alone the braking potential of the 4runner.
Glad you got the AS you wanted though, the TV can be changed if it doesn't work out.

[Ssm_001]

Originally Posted by AlinCal

Not sure what the terrain is like in Ontario but pulling a 25 in Ca with a v6 would not be fun, let alone the braking potential of the 4runner.
Glad you got the AS you wanted though, the TV can be changed if it doesn't work out.

Ontario is pretty flat, save for some rolling hills and an occasional climb up the Niagara escarpment.

[aftermath]

I had an older, 2003 I think, 4Runner that came with a V8. I towed my 21ft white box trailer with it. It was 4 feet shorter and just about 2000 lbs lighter than my 25FB but it had a whole lot more wind resistance. I live in the Pacific Northwest and travel many mountain passes. The 4Runner was quite capable of pulling my trailer. I get the same mpg towing my larger and heavier Airstream as I did the white box.



Eventually I traded it in for a Tundra knowing that we were going to get our Airstream, a 2006 25FB. Our main reason for getting into a pickup is the issues we had regarding carrying a generator and firewood. With the 4Runner it was a real pain.



That Andy guy knows his stuff. I would be concerned about the tongue weight, mine is 900+. I would not be so concerned about the stopping power of the 4Runner since properly setup trailer brakes will stop the trailer. Getting up and down hills will be a bit of a challenge but nothing I would let make my decision. If you live on relatively flat terrain and don't plan to do a lot of mountain pass driving you should be fine.


The 4Runner was probably the best vehicle we have ever owned. We really hated to see it go but we were nearing retirement so the pickup wasn't going to be our daily driver. Our decision was easy and we love our new 2017 Tundra. Our first '08 Tundra proved to be ever bit as dependable as the old 4Runner. Take a look at the Sequoia. The power train is the same as the Tundra and is great for towing.

[wdkennedy]

Great discussion on Tow Vehicle choice.

I have some suggestions on your leaky 2007 Airstream. We have a '07 Classic, 27 FB. I have zeroed in on leaks that have not been found by dealers and RV shops. The seams leak! From the top of the back joints with the white roof to the top of the rear windows, the riveted seams need to be cleaned, caulked and .........wash and wax the whole trailer every year. (When you are done, drive on down to Klamath Falls, via Interstate 97. You can park at our place here in town or out in the country. We will tour with you to Crater Lake and you can wash and wax our "Aja".)

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by Ssm_001

I do have a choice with the TV, however that choice comes at the expense of getting the AS of our dreams. It's a trade-off that will work and get us into the AS world without that nagging feeling that we will have to upgrade the AS one day. I won't ever go the pick-up truck route, but will hold out hopes for a diesel Bronco or import some variation of diesel Toyota to replace the 4runner when that day comes. Seems live axle, high center of gravity trucks aren't ideal though - perhaps a lightly used 2018 Volvo V90 XC will be the next order of tow vehicle for me ��

"OK, so lets say for "grins" your AS 25' 2007 FB has a TW of 835, per the spec sheet...likely your at around 900lbs+ loaded with water and "things" inside? (Weighing on a truck scale is best to confirm.) What does your 4runner drivers door sticker say for "payload"? If your not inclined to get a better more capable TV, and want to use your existing vehicle....like I said, you can get lots of "encouragement and advice" here to use your 4runner...even though your likely over your vehicle max payload spec...maybe over by a lot... Guess it really depends on how comfortable you want to be while pulling your AS."

You glossed over the question of your "payload" on your vehicle sticker, unless that's not important....like I said earlier your likely looking for affirmation on your 4Runner from others....easy to get that here...not so easy to find adequate payload on some of the TV's people want to use. Understand the desire to have an SUV as a TV; daily driver and all...Maybe the Sequoia is the way to go if that's your thing. Good luck with your decision, and be safe!

[brad1]

“I have some suggestions on your leaky 2007 Airstream”

WDKennedy scores big with one of the best off-topic replies I have ever seen. i think it sets a new standard. I’m gonna need more popcorn...

[Snowback]

Can-Am knows their stuff and does great work. The folks we bought our 25’ Safari from were towing comfortably with a Dodge Caravan (which I would have said is insane, but they travelled all over Canada & the US without issue)

As for the trailer you’ve chosen, we are pretty much the exact same “marketing segment” as you are, and the 25’ is a PERFECT layout for us. We have space to eat, sleep, relax, and if we had to store guests, we could on the pull out couch (we just don’t tell anyone it pulls out!)

It’s easy to tow, easy to back into pretty much ANY site, and has more storage than you’ll truly need, so the perfect long term buy.

Enjoy it!!!

[Snowback]

All that being said, +1 for the F150 as a fantastic tow vehicle (I’m on my 4th), but you can always decide later to upgrade your TV based on your own experiences.

[drbrick]

Dear ssm_001 I have seen pic of an AS being pulled by a bicycle! However, that does not mean "it's appropriate" to do so.

There is more to think about than simply Tow Capacity - there is payload, gear ratio of rearend, there is axle capability, GCVWR, load rating of your tires etc. IMO you will struggle going up most ontario hills and will White Knuckle going down any moderate grade. If you are ever in an accident and your 4R does not meet the requirement for towing a 25 foot TT your insurance will not cover you. Keep the 4R for your general driving and look for a vehicle that will tow with pleasure and keep your family safe. That's just my opinion

Please check out this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwFLOBrADBs

[Wingman360]

Our move to AS mirrors your journey exactly...
FWIW, we pull a international signature 25 with a VW Touareg with zero problems. It was set up by the AS dealer when we purchased out AS, and it has weight distribution...
CanAm knows what they are talking about.
Good camping to you!

[hobiedog]

I towed my Bambi and then my International 22 with a Ford Explorer with a HD tow package. It was rated to tow 7,200 lbs. Everything went OK until I upgraded to an International 25. I thought there would be no problems but I was very wrong. The gas tank is too small to cross country on anything but an interstate. We crossed Montana on a 2 lane against a 30 mph headwind and got less than 8 mpg. 20 times 8 is 160 miles to empty. Gas stations on a 2 lane in Montana or across Canada may be more than 160 miles apart, may not be open or may not have gas. On the way back from the west coast the engine overheated going from SLC to Park City. Couldn't get over 40 MPH. I was never comfortable driving as I always felt that trailer was in control. I looked at new TWs but choose an F150 but I think any of the 1/2 ton pickups would be OK. 35 gallon gas tank, 70 MPH over the rockies, better gas mileage and most important, no more white knuckle drives. I also would not want to be in an accident and get sued because my TW was not rated to tow my Airstream. I don't think you could convince jury that it is OK if the manufacturer says otherwise.

[Zed2]

Short answer:
We have a 2007 Safari 25FB SE.
Our first tow vehicle is a 2002 Tahoe Z71, with the 5.3. The truck can easily pull the trailer and with a brake controller can safely stop the trailer with minimum effort. (Pulling up and down a 7 percent grade taxes the engine and brakes.)

Our second tow vehicle is a 2015 Silverado 2500HD. The truck can easily pull the trailer and safely stop the trailer with minimum effort. (Even without the brake controller engaged.)

You have to consider your choice in tow vehicles, not when the weather is clear, an open flat road ahead, and no vehicles in sight; but rather when the weather is bad, visibility is poor, traffic is congested and the road is hilly.

You have to ask yourself “Am I compromising the safety of my passengers and people/property around me by choosing this tow vehicle/trailer combination?”.

Good luck on your decision.
Keith