4Runner/25 FB Safari SE

[GammaDog]

I can't answer for you, but I can share my experience.

I've owned two Toyota Tacomas including one (a 2009) with the 4.0 L V6, tow package, etc.. That's essentially the same vehicle you are describing with the 4Runner. I towed cargo trailers up to 5,000 lbs over 30,000 miles with that vehicle. It's a beast for that work.

I now tow a 25'FB Airstream with a 5.7 L Tundra (thank you, retirement, for allowing me to put aside cargo trailers for a tiny house on wheels!).

I know Andy and the team have a stellar reputation. Their opinion and work get great respect here. I would certainly consider their opinion to be "expert".

That said, a 25FB will exceed your 4 Runner's tongue weight limit by about 50% and will exceed its Gross Trailer Weight rating, too. That says you will probably also exceed the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating. It might even exceed the rear axle weight rating. I'm not sure how Andy, or anyone, can change those limits which are set by Toyota. They may be able to make it more comfortable to drive that way and even prevent structural failure of the frame from overloading, but the limits published by the manufacturer are what they are.

So... for me, I think that's not a vehicle to use for towing that trailer. Your decision with expert support and guidance may be different.

[Star Ship]

As I recall, my 4Runner has a 5000 lb hitch and won't handle 830 lbs of tongue weight....but even it if could life is about risk. If your life isn't worth a tow vehicle that can handle 7000 lbs and 830 lbs of tongue weight, think about those with you and those you'll be putting in danger on the road. Yes, my 4Runner would pull my 25 foot Airstream, but I'd never consider it, because the tail would wag the dog when it mattered. Too big a risk...

[airstream 69]

Hello,

I love the popcorn remarks)). Let me be short and sweet. We had a 25ft AS 1968 that we pulled with our 2010 4-Runner. CanAm set everything up for us. I loved my 4 Runner!! Did just fine until we graduated to a 2005 30 ft AS. Let me just say that the trailer and the 4Runner were not a happy marriage at all and that the 4 runner started a slow progression downhill regarding the pulling etc…. I also wanted a better payload margin and a much more aggressive tow haul mode for downhill and so. So for us we had to say goodbye to the 4 Runner and on to another vehicle which we have done. For me it was about safety and comfort for the family. We wish you the best while you do your research and test all of your options. Happy Trails
Wayne

[redhat200]

We pull our are 25 Ft FBT airstream with a 2014 Dodge Durango Cidadel Hemi. Pulls wonderfully. We get around 14 miles to the gallon. And all the luxury of the Dodge Durango Citadel . Happy travels

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by redhat200

We pull our are 25 Ft FBT airstream with a 2014 Dodge Durango Cidadel Hemi. Pulls wonderfully. We get around 14 miles to the gallon. And all the luxury of the Dodge Durango Citadel . Happy travels

And no one gives a crap about the specs nor payload anymore...why are they asking questions here??

[Tom_T]

We've towed with the 4Runner's cousin - renting 2012-13 Nissan Pathfinders with their 4.0L V6 for about 5 trips back then - but our vintage kin 1960 Avion T20 is probably half the weight of your AS 25' - ours at 3000-3500 lbs. trailer wt. wet & loaded with 542 lbs tongue wt./HW (2x 30 lb LP tanks + Hensley Cub 160 lbs etc on the A-frame). So we were well within the Pathfinder's 7000 lbs & 800+/- HW rating.


As another noted above, here in SoCal we have hill & mountain grades to climb, & that V6 just works hard & loud on them, as well as hunting gears at freeway speed (maybe a trans issue, but was on all 5 Pathfinders rented in 2013).



Yes it worked okay, but as a purchase, we'd want something with more pulling power to use on longer trips & across more mountain ranges, than the minor "hills" that you have up there in Ontario. So I just felt that the V8 Pathfinder version would be more appropriate & less cabin nose, since it would work hard, at lower rpms, & less shifting - & then they switched to the smaller current version with no V8 (as did 4Runner about then).



Toyota had both the 4runner & Lexus GX470 twins with V8s, & the Lexus GX460 V8 is still made (if you like that fugly grill). Those are rated to tow IIRC still up to about 7000 lbs & 700-800 lbs HW - but they are both made with very flexible suspensions for off-roading, which is not the best for trailer pulling & resisting crosswinds, sway, 18-wheeler wakes, etc. There was a GX460/470 + Bambi roll-over in mid-2016 in ID posted on here, that you'll want to read if you can find it.


We'd test driven a very nice used 2013 GX460 that same week or thereafter of that roll-over, & I found that the suspension was too pliable in "Esses" for my liking/comfort, plus the seats were as hard as church pews as soon as we sat in them (a surprise from a luxury brand like Lexus), & the factory hitch was too short & close to the spare - necessitating either removing & relocating the spare or adding an aftermarket hitch. So not for us, & I went back to searching for a used Cayenne S V8, which is the same size/class as the Lexus/Toyota twins.



I don't know what your AS 25' weighs wet & loaded for a trip (trailer wt. & HW) - but you should get those numbers at a truck scale (Sherline scale for the HW can be done at home), then compare with your 4Runner's ratings. I think that others may be right, & your 4Runner may or may not be rated high enough for that trailer, but you have options in other mid-sized TVs. Check back with Andy on your trailer's wet/loaded numbers vs the $Runner's just to be sure.



I agree with you on the mid-size SUVs being a good fit since we're on a narrow street with a skinny 8' w driveway, & it's just far easier to thread the needle with an overall shorter rig, than what we've been doing 2014> with rented 3/4 ton crew cab pick-ups from Enterprise Truck Rental (Nissan dealer stopped their rental business in 2014).



The problem today - what with the mfgrs' shift to smaller 4 & 6 cyl. engines for fuel economy - is finding a mid-size SUV with a non-turbo V8, or a turbo V6 gas or diesel which has the pulling power to tow on grades. I'm unconvinced about the gas turbo V6s, without actually trying one in towing use first. The TDIs have more torque for the towing.


Also, the V6 will get lower mpg while towing, than will a normally aspirated V8 (turbo V8s are lower mpg too) - even if they get better economy unhitched - so you'll want to consider how much of it's use will be towing vs not.



In our case, we already have 2 good mpg cars, & most of the SUV use would be towing (70-80%+) - so getting 12-14 mpg from a Base V6 Cayenne, or 11-13 from a Turbo V8 - vs 15-17 with a non-turbo V8 Cayenne S is a big difference, especially if we start doing longer XC trips towing. It sounds like the other $Runner owner from SoCal area got similar V6 mpg towing, & maybe a Lexus GX460 owner can chime in on what they get.



There's another thread on here for Cayenne/VW Touareg/Audi Q7 owners, which also has some other brands/models mid-sized SUVs on there too, which you might want to check out for 4Runner & GX460/470, Land Cruiser & LX470/570 owners' experiences with towing.



http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...rs-134917.html



The other online Taco & 4Runner Forums may also have some info for you too.



.



And for the comment about the Durango Hemi V8 towing - would you same the same about it's twin Jeep Grand Cherokee V8!? Unless the trailer exceeds the rating for the Durango, there is no way that it is any less safe than a 1500 or F150 from the Big 3!



Cheers!
Tom
///////

[Ronman]

The 4 Runner is not enough IMO. I have a 2008 27FB and we used a 2001 a Tundra with the 4.7 V8. Towed it well in most California situations. The problem...stopping it! Going downhill was challenging. Pulling the Grapevine uphill was not an issue. Pulling 7% grades was at 38 MPH and not the end of the world. BUT...going downhill using truck and trailer brakes and transmission had its moments. If you’re in a place like California’s Central Valley, you’re fine. If you’re venturing out to the mountains, think twice.
Be smart and protect your family.
Just one man’s opinion. Good Luck!

[jcl]

I would have no issues towing a 25 with a 4 Runner, especially if CanAm set it up. I would pay attention to the hitch and whether it needs reinforcement to handle WD equipment. I would respect published axle weight ratings, those are hard stops to me. And we travel light, never with firewood (not legal to transport in many places), generator, extra fuel, boats and motors, etc. If you want to carry all those sorts of things you may need more cargo capacity in a tow vehicle, but that is a personal choice.

[RVeeNooB]

Hell, my 2016 4Runner can barely get out of it's own way. Just the worst acceleration. I couldn't imagine towing anything with it.

[Adventure.AS]

Originally Posted by RVeeNooB

Hell, my 2016 4Runner can barely get out of it's own way. Just the worst acceleration. I couldn't imagine towing anything with it.

What is the rear axle gear ratio? This ratio has a lot to do with acceleration, top speed and towing ability.

[Ssm_001]

Based on my research I have found the following:

V6 4Runners are rated for 5000/500 primarily due to the hitch being mounted to the very last frame cross member. This is a weight carrying set-up that is not recommended for use with a WDH as this set-up cannot effectively absorb the energy from the WDH.

V6 Tacomas are rated for 6400/640 with what is essentially the same drivetrain etc. The only difference here is that the Tacoma has an oil cooler and a beefier hitch set-up that is mounted to the frame rails rather than the crossmember. This set-up can be safely and effectively used with a WDH without fear of the crossmember failing.

V8 4Runners are rated 7000/700 (4WD) and 7300/730 (2WD) with much of the same drivetrain components save for the 4.7L V8 and pneumatic levelling in the rear. Most everything else is the same.

Based on this data, it wouldn't be a stretch to assume that with the beefed up frame rail mounted hitch and an auxiliary trans cooler the V6 4runner could tow somewhere around the 6400/640 of the Tacoma - assuming tires and such were considered as well. Who knows how much closer to the 7000/700 the airbags would take you.

Not only is it possible to beef up the 5000/500 rating on the TV a little, it is also possible to pare down on what's in the TT. As mentioned, we will be doing 90ish% travelling within a few hours of home and will be on serviced sites 95% of the time until we retire and have the time to travel more. We do not need the twin 30lb propane tanks. We do not need to travel with 39 gallons of water on board. We will not have a generator. We will more often than not drop the trailer on-site and then run into town for groceries and beer. We will buy firewood at our destination. Outside of a weekend's worth of clothes for two people, a duvet and some well thought out kitchen wares and folding chairs, I think we'd be lucky to see 200lbs of goods travel with us.

With that being said, I think a little planning and some out-of-the-box thinking will go a long way towards making this combination work for us and I think the intent of my original post was to see what others have done, tips and tricks wise, to make their odd pairing work for them. Surely everything is not static - there are many more variables than a TV/TT spec sheet would suggest.

[Helper]

I have a 2009 V-8 4-Runner and pull a single axle 2009 Flying Cloud single axle 20 footer. The trailer has.a gross vehicle weight of 5000 pounds. My tow vehicle V-8 4Runner, has a towing capacity of 7,300 pounds. I am able to adequately pull my trailer however would never consider pulling a 25 foot double axle with it.

The V-6 4Runner has a towing capacity of only 5,000 pounds which would not adequately/safely pull your trailer.

[pteck]

I'm as bullish as any when it comes to modifying vehicles and making them perform. I use to own a 2005 4Runner Limited, but in V8 guise, and very greatly enjoyed that SUV. Still believe in and enjoy Toyota products.

That said, you're going to be challenged on a couple fronts.

1) Vehicle size, weight, and configuration
The 4Runner is made as a nimble, high clearance, and great suspension articulation vehicle. With relatively short wheelbase and long overhangs. Qualities that are not exactly ideally suited for laden or load bearing work on account of its softly sprung nature. Even Andy himself in many threads has qualified it as not an ideal tow vehicle for larger loads. Sure, he can do enough things to make it work, including installing a weight distributing hitch (Toyota OEM offers one for your generation), lower profile tires, and a hitch ball close and tight. You could also choose to use a pivot point projecting hitch that completely mitigates the short wheelbase/stability issues.

2) Power
The V6 is only rated at 236 hp / 266 tq. It completely depends on your power expectations. But very few would be happy with that kind of reserve to motivate 10,000+ lbs of rig. Andy can again help a bit with shorter tires to increase gearing and torque at the wheels, but it will be tepid at best. Perhaps even a safety issue at speed and grade at worse.

What the 4Runner is truly excellent at is retaining its value.

I suggest to take the opportunity to realize the great equity in it, rather than to sink monies into modifications to make it work. You don't have to go out there and spend tens of thousands in a new tow vehicle. Trade it in for a new to you, gently used Toyota if you must stay in the brand. Anything that utilizes their 5.7L will be great to pair with your 25ft AS.

Like you, I'm a die hard SUV guy. There are many great choices out there that will be more competent.

[Ssm_001]

Originally Posted by pteck

I'm as bullish as any when it comes to modifying vehicles and making them perform. I use to own a 2005 4Runner Limited, but in V8 guise, and very greatly enjoyed that SUV. Still believe in and enjoy Toyota products.

That said, you're going to be challenged on a couple fronts.

1) Vehicle size, weight, and configuration
The 4Runner is made as a nimble, high clearance, and great suspension articulation vehicle. With relatively short wheelbase and long overhangs. Qualities that are not exactly ideally suited for laden or load bearing work on account of its softly sprung nature. Even Andy himself in many threads has qualified it as not an ideal tow vehicle for larger loads. Sure, he can do enough things to make it work, including installing a weight distributing hitch (Toyota OEM offers one for your generation), lower profile tires, and a hitch ball close and tight. You could also choose to use a pivot point projecting hitch that completely mitigates the short wheelbase/stability issues.

2) Power
The V6 is only rated at 236 hp / 266 tq. It completely depends on your power expectations. But very few would be happy with that kind of reserve to motivate 10,000+ lbs of rig. Andy can again help a bit with shorter tires to increase gearing and torque at the wheels, but it will be tepid at best. Perhaps even a safety issue at speed and grade at worse.

What the 4Runner is truly excellent at is retaining its value.

I suggest to take the opportunity to realize the great equity in it, rather than to sink monies into modifications to make it work. You don't have to go out there and spend tens of thousands in a new tow vehicle. Trade it in for a new to you, gently used Toyota if you must stay in the brand. Anything that utilizes their 5.7L will be great to pair with your 25ft AS.

Like you, I'm a die hard SUV guy. There are many great choices out there that will be more competent.

I appreciate the well thought out response.

I think if I cashed out the 4runner for something else that would suit my daily needs and provide a decent towing platform I would move in the other direction with a CamAm outfitted Volvo wagon, Ford Flex or even an Odyssey/Ridgeline.

Getting into a Tundra or Sequoia or any other full-sized vehicle seems wasteful when considering it would only be towing 40-50 hours in a year. It also doesn't mesh well with our lifestyle as we live in a 'parking challenged' condominium - which is one of the reasons we are looking to an Airstream to do some weekend tripping an hour or so out of town.

I can appreciate that the 4runner will never be an ideal tow vehicle, however towing is only one of many hats my vehicle must wear - and is likely the largest vehicle I would ever consider owning. I can appreciate the virtues of having a full-sized truck for long hauls or full/part-timing and would certainly rent a pick-up for weeks long trips out to the East Coast on our vacation, however keeping a vehicle like that for a dozen or so short trips in our locale each year doesn't add up.

I will certainly need to consider my options, however none of them would include walking away from the 4runner within the next few years - if the 4runner is indeed that poor at shunting a 25 footer around the region, the Airstream will be put on hold and we will revisit when it is due for replacement (which could be a very long time given its durability)...

[RVeeNooB]

Originally Posted by Adventure.AS

What is the rear axle gear ratio? This ratio has a lot to do with acceleration, top speed and towing ability.

Axle ratio has nothing to do with the engine sounding like it's going to blow up when I give it gas in a passing situation.

[Ssm_001]

Originally Posted by jcl

I would have no issues towing a 25 with a 4 Runner, especially if CanAm set it up. I would pay attention to the hitch and whether it needs reinforcement to handle WD equipment. I would respect published axle weight ratings, those are hard stops to me. And we travel light, never with firewood (not legal to transport in many places), generator, extra fuel, boats and motors, etc. If you want to carry all those sorts of things you may need more cargo capacity in a tow vehicle, but that is a personal choice.

Jcl - precisely my thoughts. We already know the spare tire will be removed and the hitch beefed up and reinforced. Trans cooler will be added as will brake controller. And again, travelling light makes a difference.

I am content to cruise at 95-100kmh in the slow lane all day long, and most of the others we will travel are 70-80kmh two laners. When we retire and start to go on longer adventures through varying types of terrain I might consider reassessing.

[gypsydad]

In post #4 I suggested you are just looking for positive opinions here to support your decision to use your 4runner; not really interested or able to get a new TV now. Ptek is absolutely right with his comments/suggestions in post #33. Sure you can throw $$ at your 4runner with CanAm or someone else to modify to tow the 25'AS, but you will still have the other issues such as Payload, power, handling and braking to consider. If your just looking for a weekend getaway type AS, perhaps look at something smaller like you were doing, or face the reality of the situation. You appear ready to modify your 4runner to tow the 25; why not look outside the box at how you can just use the equity of the 4runner (Ptek) to get something better suited for your needs? Hope you end up with a safe solution.

[Adventure.AS]

Originally Posted by RVeeNooB

Axle ratio has nothing to do with the engine sounding like it's going to blow up when I give it gas in a passing situation.

For example the 2014 4Runner with the 4.0-liter V-6 is rated at 270 horsepower at 5,600 rpm and 278 pounds-feet of torque at 4,400 rpm,

Are you exaggerating for effect ... or are you afraid of getting performance from you vehicle by revving the engine (as it was designed to do)?

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by Ssm_001

Greetings! After a few months of shopping travel trailers, we have landed at Airstream and can't seem to go back. It all started with shopping small teardrops for quick weekend getaways, moved on to Armadillos and the Happier Campier HC1, and the we finally graduated to the Bambi Sport 16, until we toured the Sport 22. I can't tell you how many times I've heard the 'buy your second AS first' advice, and it seems to make sense. So here is our situation:

We are early 40s, both have careers and will be travelling just the two of us plus our 40lb dog on occasion. Because we both work full time we will be spending most of the next 15-20 years doing short weekend trips within 300 or so kilometers of home in Ontario - which is primarily flat. We will likely do a 2 week or so trip out to the East coast in the summer each year but don't plan to do any really big trips until retirement. We will be 95% on serviced lots so will be travelling lightly for the most part - some clothes and supplies only. Water, groceries and such will often be sourced after camp is set up. We don't intend to bring company - this is for the two of us only - company can bring their own rig. So my quandary is this:

Getting back to the 'buying your second AS first' thing - I have fallen for a used 2007 Safari 25 FB SE with a proper bed, decent sized fridge, front and rear panoramas, vistas, recessed lighting etc etc. It is large enough to be our 'forever AS' and has enough of the AS niceties to keep the geek in me satisfied. It has just had the floor redone by Airstream as these apparently have an issue with leaking at the rear? Anyhow - the Safari 25 needs more that the 5k lb class 3 set-up that came with my 2006 4runner V6. Andy and his team at CamAm will be fabbing up a proper frame rail mounted hitch set-up, WDH, twin stabilizers, brake controller, trans cooler etc. I know there seems to be a contingent that believes anything short of an F150 is inappropriate, however there is another contingent that seem to have a pretty good grasp on engineering and handling dynamics that say an AS with a properly set-up TV/hitch assembly deems big dollar, huge trucks as irrelevant. I have read all manner of opinion on whether the 4runner/Taco family are worthy TVs. I prefer their more compact size and incredible durability and am willing to sacrifice some towability for a decent daily driver - if I was travelling mountain passes I might be singing a different song.

Many will say pulling a 25 around with a 4Runner is crazy. Andy/CanAm seem to think it will work just fine. I tend to think he knows what he is talking about. Anyone want to pipe in?

It’s too small, and too old, to use for pulling a trailer that size. But hook up and try it. I towed a Bambi 19’ exactly three times with a Grand Cherokee with more power and weight than a 4runner, and switched to a truck (and then a larger airstream).

I assume you’re a reasonably good driver. Try it and see. You’ll just get opinions on here.

[Grace-n-Pup]

Here was our situation you can take what you want from it. We are newbies by all means so we are not as experienced as others on here but this is what we did. We looked for a year or so then settled on a 2005 25 Safari. We looked at #'s and thought our Tahoe would do fine. We had it about 2 months before we upgraded to a 2500HD. We could have sunk money in it for modifications that may have helped or may have not. It was NOT relaxing being the passenger while towing. It felt like the Airstream might "own" the truck vs the other. We too are in our early 40's and plan on doing mostly weekend trips and live in FL on flat ground compared to many but it still wasnt comfortable towing it. I wanted safety above all. Then I wanted to be able to take those week long trips once a year that may involve mountains up to the Carolinas or to see family out of state. The experience from those "old timers" are what helped us decide to just make the plunge and go with the 2500 HD. I spent many hours researching previous posts on here to come to the conclusion we needed to upgrade. It is my daily driving vehicle (small city driving)...is it a bit more of a pain to park etc yes but safety while hauling trumps all of those things. Along with the fact camping is suppose to be relaxing and if the drive there and back isn't relaxing then it defeats the purpose. I figure you pay for health insurance life insurance and save money for retirement why not have some extra "insurance" while towing by having a TV that doesn't have you guessing whether it will do the job or not.