Non-Tradional WBCCI Unit Poll

[moosetags]

I think that the Club would oppose a MAL Unit because they know that a number of members would leave traditional units to affiliate with the MAL unit. This is not the IBT's vision of what the Club should be. They would have to deal with a giant unit that generally did not see eye-to-eye with the IBT.

Brian

[Jim & Susan]

Let me just say at the outset that Susan and I had to go out of town yesterday morning, so I haven’t been around an internet connection to keep up with things in this thread.

Bryan (Leipper), if you would permit me a little latitude for a moment. My intention here was take an informal, non-binding, completely non-scientific poll among the folks here on this forum. It was most definitely NOT intended to trash anybody’s beliefs or values. Hate is a very strong emotion, and I can say with a clean conscience that there are very few things, and even fewer people, that I “hate”. The questions in the poll were written to try and introduce a little humor into the conversation. Nothing more, nothing less. If I have offended you in any way, please accept my humble and sincere apologies.

Let me address traditions for a minute. At the risk of sounding completely self-serving, and posting something that I really don’t want to get into, Susan and I belong to three organizations that have traditions that are steadfast in their beliefs and many, many decades older than the WBCCI. Namely, the United States Army, the Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts. Traditions are a central part of the beliefs and core values of these groups. Traditions are maintained for several reasons. It gives the members of the organization a base to build from. It reminds them that they are carrying on because of all those that came before them. It also tells them to never forget the same people. Just a short list.

But it seems to me that any group has to change with the times. Let me tell you our WBCCI story. We are not members, but that is as much a function of not having a working Airstream yet (still under construction) as anything. We were able to attend the International last year in Perry on Saturday to visit the VAC open house. I have to say that the VAC is wonderful group of folks! Everybody welcomed us in and treated us like “family”. What more could you ask of any social organization that you are contemplating joining? And let’s face it; the WBCCI is more a social organization than a “camping” organization. We also had a chance to walk through the exhibition halls and view some of the work of the other units. I can say that we seem to relate more to the VAC folks than the others. That’s not a value judgment. We just identify with some groups better than others, that’s all. Not “better” or “worse”, just different.

Rules and regulations.

I am completely clueless about the day to day workings of the WBCCI. I have no idea what it takes to form a new unit. But, I have helped to incorporate other non-profits in the past. Somebody posted that the WBCCI has 75 PAGES of bylaws. I can tell you that is lot of rules.

So, in summation, to get back to the point…..I was simply asking who would and who wouldn’t. It may not be doable because of the structure of the organization itself. Based on the voting so far in this thread (again, completely non-scientific) roughly 80% of those responding to the question think there is a need for a “non-traditional” WBCCI unit. Those numbers point in a clear direction.

I know what some of you are thinking. “Dang, he almost articulated a reasonable point of view”. And you would be right.


Jim

[AirsDream]

Eubank points out that the "Rules" require that one list a state (or a State), if the Rules are quoted correctly. Seems to me plausible that the Rule creators have provided the "correct" answer to this issue in their drafting - no telling whether this was intentional or inadvertent:

Under International Law principles, the USA is a State - and perhaps is a state, depending upon where you're from. So, why not the "USA CyberSpace Unit"?

Ryanh

[2airishuman]

the poll is entertaining, and the results not a surprise.

we've covered the issues many times b4...

1. how the wb' defines mal status and how they intended this 'affiliate member ' classification would be used.

2. the reality of how those of us that ARE MALs TODAY would like the classification to be used.

#1 and #2 are in direct opposition and only #1 has power....

we who are #2 can raise a StInK (pun intended) and it does very little to help...

unit #000 is the placemarker used for mal classification, by the home office.

we are #000...and like tibet we need FREEDOM!

i've long favored a unit for us (3rd rock from the sun) is my favorite name...

although a unit simply called wbcci....

"wally's bastard children camping incognito " has a certain ring too...

for some background and views on both sides read these 2 threads...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f286...rge-24155.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f286...sap-39772.html

the first of these 2 explains exactly what a mal isn't (someone who drops out to become a mal)

see MOST of us that are mals don't wanna be tied to one local where we can't give it our all...

we are TRAVELERS in TRAILERS (TnT) and want a global unit that is geared toward our 'streamer lifestyle'...

this is just like the 100+ units that consider eating lunch at denny's monthly as a camping trip...

only different.

also the cyber/virtual unit idea has been floating here for a LONG time...

and this is the most complete thread on the topic.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f286...nit-22293.html

you will note in THAT THREAD, we had 10+ folks gathered to form a unit and a club insider to help...

and the effort went NO WHERE fast.

i have been a LOUD proponent for a cyber/virtual unit AND a mal unit with full membership status....

but as the main club continues to SINK under it's own leader ineptness...

i've become less interested in ANY new unit.

"a fish rots from the head down " is more than a cliche' it IS what's happening to the wb'...

so i'm less and less interested in remaining a member or forming a unit on a rotting fish.

cheers
2air'

[Jim & Susan]

I'm really sorry I asked the question at this point. That pretty much makes up my mind about membership in this organization. Good luck to you all.

If the Mods want to close this thread in order to avoid any more bad feelings, I wouldn't be opposed to that.

Jim

[norsea]

Originally Posted by Jim & Susan

I'm really sorry I asked the question at this point. That pretty much makes up my mind about membership in this organization. Good luck to you all.

If the Mods want to close this thread in order to avoid any more bad feelings, I wouldn't be opposed to that.

Jim

Then PM me and we can talk about creating the Airstream Club of our dreams....

Jim

[AirsDream]

I don't know about bad feelings. But any organization that can't withstand vigorous debate is too weak to long survive.

I'm too new at this game to have a real opinion. But I do know that since WBCCI was created, times and the definition of "community" have changed. Just look at this website and set of forums. Ideas and help and chat and exchange of views occur from all over. People helping people. Best practices and recipes exchanged. Dialogue on a wide variety of topics. And because it's Internet based, it's not geographically bounded. Isn't that the issue?

Ryanh

[eubank]

If there's disagreement, I think it might be that there are different reasons about for being a MAL currently.

-Some MAL folks don't want to be associated with a particular unit, a particular geography. For these folks, MAL is the best choice, but they should also consider starting an intra-club to serve their interests.

-Other MAL folks want to belong to a unit, but cannot locate an appropriate, non-moribund unit where they live. For these folks, the new unit approach a la FCU looks like the best approach.

Different solutions for different folks. Where's the beef?


Lynn

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by AirsDream

I don't know about bad feelings. But any organization that can't withstand vigorous debate is too weak to long survive...

absolutely ON TARGET and clearly part of the issue.

the other threads are linked only for background and so as to not need reposting many of the issues and counterpoints...

which haven't changed in the last 2 years.

i don't read any hard feelings in this thread.

the wb' leadership is having 'hard feelings' trying to contain/control how we think and relate and act regarding the club's many issues...

sanctions directed toward active/vocal members is one new example of this leader dysfunction...

mals and a cyber/virtual unit are 2 different issues completely, even though many mals might opt to JOIN such a unit, IF it existed.

mal is a really an affiliate class of membership, JUST like joining the vac without owning a qualifying trailer.

no voting rights, no potential for joining the leader ranks and a stepped down view from other REAL members...

the difference is vac makes it VERY CLEAR about what associate member status is and the wb' doesn't, at least before you PAY the money.

a new intraclub is NOTHING like forming a cyber/virtual unit. NOTHING at all similar about these 2 things.

besides mals can't form an intraclub, they can't even have a bulletin board at the international...

or have a scheduled breakfast meeting PUBLISHED in the int booklet.

that's why it was so EASY for the ibt to vote to TAKE MORE MONEY from mals,

because mals have NO rights are means of formal interaction with the board.

back to the cyber unit topic of THIS thread...

but the time this concept is enabled, it will be too late.

wb' decline is a MOVING target, sinking is an ongoing event.

so approving fixes for past tense issues becomes a 'catch up' game that is largely futile.

do not shop 4 a new roof during the rainstorm...

cheers
2air'

[moosetags]

Very nicely put 2air. I realize that all our rhetoric here on the Forums is generally meaningless to the mighty IBT, but it just makes me feel better to have a soap box to vent from. I just can't seem to get past the unfairness of the MAL issue within WBCCI.

Brian

[watson007]

Originally Posted by eubank

I won't vote in this one because I still think you're pretty much dreaming. I think there is demand for new units, but the rules that govern the WBCCI have to be taken into consideration as well. And one of those rules is geographic location. "Cyber unit" just won't fy, I'm afraid.

So, then, if you are serious about starting a new unit, then stop dreaming and look into what it takes to start one. You have a great resource here on the forums with the FCU people, who went through the process and can provide you with lots of info on it.

Lynn

Hi Lynn,
That is the interesting part of this new club : if you don't want to join ,then you can simply " not join " no penalties and you don't have to buy a white tuxedo or a beret or have a 74 page book of rules telling me what kind of lock I can put on my trailer ...I will put any lock on my trailer I want ,,,any color numbers or any color of the word Airstream,,show up when I want and not show up when I don't want to .
I do want to get the kitty started and it will take a few bucks to do that with a web site and all.
Please tell me where to send my check !!
Thanks
watson007
Mike

[wheel interested]

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

the poll is entertaining, and the results not a surprise.

we've covered the issues many times b4...

1. how the wb' defines mal status and how they intended this 'affiliate member ' classification would be used.

2. the reality of how those of us that ARE MALs TODAY would like the classification to be used.

#1 and #2 are in direct opposition and only #1 has power....

we who are #2 can raise a StInK (pun intended) and it does very little to help...

unit #000 is the placemarker used for mal classification, by the home office.

we are #000...and like tibet we need FREEDOM!

i've long favored a unit for us (3rd rock from the sun) is my favorite name...

although a unit simply called wbcci....

"wally's bastard children camping incognito " has a certain ring too...

for some background and views on both sides read these 2 threads...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f286...rge-24155.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f286...sap-39772.html

the first of these 2 explains exactly what a mal isn't (someone who drops out to become a mal)

see MOST of us that are mals don't wanna be tied to one local where we can't give it our all...

we are TRAVELERS in TRAILERS (TnT) and want a global unit that is geared toward our 'streamer lifestyle'...

this is just like the 100+ units that consider eating lunch at denny's monthly as a camping trip...

only different.

also the cyber/virtual unit idea has been floating here for a LONG time...

and this is the most complete thread on the topic.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f286...nit-22293.html

you will note in THAT THREAD, we had 10+ folks gathered to form a unit and a club insider to help...

and the effort went NO WHERE fast.

i have been a LOUD proponent for a cyber/virtual unit AND a mal unit with full membership status....

but as the main club continues to SINK under it's own leader ineptness...

i've become less interested in ANY new unit.

"a fish rots from the head down " is more than a cliche' it IS what's happening to the wb'...

so i'm less and less interested in remaining a member or forming a unit on a rotting fish.

cheers
2air'

I could not agree more with 2Air's spot on response. And I have highlighted one particularly favorite part. MY starry eyes have lost their twinkle. I don't think it would happen. A unit as it stands must have half its members in the locality of the unit's geographical base. The only way this could happen is if the majority of units made the amendments and voted it in on behalf of the MALs rather than a motion being submitted through the IBT. Yeah, well I am not holding my breath either. But it might be a good exercise for someone with lots of energy and time, and would not mind the effort failing to sell it to all the units.

[bryanl]

you don't have to buy a white tuxedo or a beret or have a 74 page book of rules telling me what kind of lock I can put on my trailer

It is amazing how much fiction comes into these threads to attempt to rationalize opinions and allegations.

It is also interesting how the fundamental concept that defines any group is dismissed or ignored. (it's identity or what makes it unique and special and different)

I guess we should be very happy that so many have such a free life with so few burdens and such little hardship that a complete independence from any others can be discussed in such a flippant manner. There are really very few places on the planet that have created such comfort and security for so long as to provide that and it is a blessing to acknowledge.

If you want to start your own organization where the focus is on gathering in front of computer screens rather than around a campfire, where the communications between members is as filtered as these forums illustrate resulting in similar misunderstandings and strained relationships, then why complain about WBCCI? There's even a 'nonprofit for dummies' book that will provide guidance.

But, when you do, you'll find why matters of identity, standards, communication, procedure, and other such ilk become worthy of careful consideration.

Please tell me where to send my check !!

Rather than look for someone else to lead, why not lead yourself? The money is easy. Getting people to volunteer their time, their effort, and their expertise is difficult. There have been several examples of folks in these forums who have put together events or done other things in this vein - did you see that effort? did you recognize it? did you provide ongoing support and do things to keep it going? Whether it is SaveWally or an Airforums rally or something else, what have you done to give the effort strength, to help make the effort independent of critical personnel, to provide continuity and growth and development?

Sending money - that's nice and it can help. But serving as a volunteer is better and as a responsible volunteer (organization officer who can be held accountable) gets even better than that. Perhaps most valuable is being able to figure out how to contribute and support in a new way. Whether it is trying to help a one or two person organization or a larger and more structured group, inventing a way to support constructively can be the challenge that underlies its value.

It is easy to complain, castigate, and otherwise attack something that exists. It is much much more difficult to build that something and keep it healthy.

[watson007]

Originally Posted by Leipper

It is amazing how much fiction comes into these threads to attempt to rationalize opinions and allegations.

It is also interesting how the fundamental concept that defines any group is dismissed or ignored. (it's identity or what makes it unique and special and different)

I guess we should be very happy that so many have such a free life with so few burdens and such little hardship that a complete independence from any others can be discussed in such a flippant manner. There are really very few places on the planet that have created such comfort and security for so long as to provide that and it is a blessing to acknowledge.

If you want to start your own organization where the focus is on gathering in front of computer screens rather than around a campfire, where the communications between members is as filtered as these forums illustrate resulting in similar misunderstandings and strained relationships, then why complain about WBCCI? There's even a 'nonprofit for dummies' book that will provide guidance.

But, when you do, you'll find why matters of identity, standards, communication, procedure, and other such ilk become worthy of careful consideration.


Rather than look for someone else to lead, why not lead yourself? The money is easy. Getting people to volunteer their time, their effort, and their expertise is difficult. There have been several examples of folks in these forums who have put together events or done other things in this vein - did you see that effort? did you recognize it? did you provide ongoing support and do things to keep it going? Whether it is SaveWally or an Airforums rally or something else, what have you done to give the effort strength, to help make the effort independent of critical personnel, to provide continuity and growth and development?

Sending money - that's nice and it can help. But serving as a volunteer is better and as a responsible volunteer (organization officer who can be held accountable) gets even better than that. Perhaps most valuable is being able to figure out how to contribute and support in a new way. Whether it is trying to help a one or two person organization or a larger and more structured group, inventing a way to support constructively can be the challenge that underlies its value.

It is easy to complain, castigate, and otherwise attack something that exists. It is much much more difficult to build that something and keep it healthy.

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But ,As I stated, i just bought my first camper last week. And it is an Airstream. And i am willing to support a new club simply because the little I have learned about the existing one , I simply don't like: i,e the by laws are a booklet that takes up 74 pages ...If it takes you 74 pages to tell us how we can and cannot have fun then I don't need you nor do i want you . I am simply looking for other people who share a common thread....they like camping ,,they like airstreams and when i am camping ,should I run into someone who's numbers i recognize, i will stop and say hello and maybe sit by the fire for a bit ,If I don't rcognize the numbers I will inquire and possible play "the 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon " with old friends i have just met

I am not sure as to the certainty as to the things I have read. I have only read them here on this site,and at that,only for about 10-12 days . But if the big shots who make the calls ,if the people in charge suspend a member because he got a little too close to their nerve endings ,if the beret s and the special clothes and the hierachy I hear about are in any way true, then you can get down off your soap box 'cause i can't hear you ! And thanks for the "its wondeful to live in a place where we have so much freedom " speech ...wasn't that from the movie " animal house"?

" me thinks thou protests too much " !!


And me,,,,I have so much to learn about airstreams,,so much , but I am chomping at the bit !there are so many people here who are willing to offer advice and help in so many ways ...They offer help and suggestions not drivel..So I thought I would offer a few bucks [according to you that makes me bad ] and when the time comes and I can help as a volunteer I will be first in line....right now I need to know which KIND of tires do i put on my 25'Airstream . It has 7.00 x15 bias tires ,no doubt the originals from 1972 , that have more cracks in them than I would believe possible and still retain some air in them ..I have decided to take all four tires to a body shop, have them cleaned, sand blasted if needed , and painted either a Glossy black enamel or a kelly green enamel which will go with the new seat cushions and curtains i will put in the living/kitchen area..I assume that 7.00 x15 inch radials would be okay but do they need to be special for a camper or can i just buy them off the shelf at a B.F. Goodrich store?..Do they need to be a bias tire ?.the list goes on and on ....and I look forward to the day when I have learned and can volunteer to help the new "newbies"

But for the time being ,I am the Newbies ,and 'NO " I don't want to spend my time sitting around a computer screen instead of camping ,but right now i have work to do and when my time for tugging my silver bullet into the northern reaches of Maine [ Known as " The Allagash " ] Then I will do my camping and fishing and campfires..

You Said "It is easy to complain, castigate, and otherwise attack something that exists. It is much much more difficult to build that something and keep it healthy".
So while I am helping to build something and keep it healthy and free of club rules and limits on this and that,which lock i am to use and where i can park,how much seniority I have , you can just keep on blathering about how wrong I am .....JUst go Castigate someone else cause I don't give a rats puttoootie who you are or what you think ...Lead, follow or get out of the way ...I am busy
Michael Clayton
Sandwich New Hampshire
on Golden pond

"FREEDOM AIN'T FREE"

[bryanl]

Perhaps you should actually read all those pages of rules - I think you'd find they have very little to do with about "how we can and cannot have fun" - I do not think it wise or useful to create a straw man in order to rationalize being incensed about something.

I am also very sorry to see that your appreciation of a description of the benefits of living in the U.S. belongs in the Animal House category and as "drivel" - or is it you just can't stand my meager attempts to communicate? Either way it is an interesting judgment.

I don't want to spend my time sitting around a computer screen instead of camping

here we agree - this whole 'cyber unit' thing is a diversion away from what we have our Airstream RV's for. Too bad that the topic can't be discussed without such claims as "I don't give a rats puttoootie who you are or what you think" - it seems such an approach is totally contradictory to the purpose of these forums (and perhaps its pages of rules as well).

[Airstream25]

Originally Posted by watson007

So while I am helping to build something and keep it healthy and free of club rules and limits on this and that,which lock i am to use and where i can park,how much seniority I have , you can just keep on blathering about how wrong I am .....JUst go Castigate someone else cause I don't give a rats puttoootie who you are or what you think ...Lead, follow or get out of the way ...I am busy
Michael Clayton
Sandwich New Hampshire
on Golden pond
"FREEDOM AIN'T FREE"

Watson007,
I think you will find that Airforums is a wonderful source of information about any imaginable Airstream subject. Over the years I have learned a lot and had a number of pleasurable online discussions. I have also gotten some undesirable static from a few naysayers. The beauty of cyberspace is that you can blow these naysayers away without any bloodshed or consequences.
The secret of how to do this is to first click on "User CP" near the top left of the window. In the new window that opens, look for "Edit Ignore List" in the left margin. Click on that, then in the new window that opens, enter the forum name of anyone that you find objectionable and poof they are out of your life but you can still enjoy the rest of what Airforums has to offer.
Don't you wish it was this easy in the real world

[Jim & Susan]

I started this thread as an attempt to ask a simple question, hopefully with a little humor thrown in here and there.

And now look what's happened. It's degenerated into another damned argument between the WBCCI crowd and non-members.

Here’s a couple of suggestions for you all:

Non-members: Leave them alone. No matter what you say, it’s gonna really tick somebody off.

Members: Get a grip on reality, thicken your skin and go find a sense of humor.

Good grief.

Jim